Tuesday, March 20, 2007

Madonna Whore Syndrome: Do Women Believe This, Too?

An acquaintance said something to me a couple of days ago that made me a little uncomfortable and I think I may have just figured out why.

She was talking about how we both have friends who are strippers or in the porn biz. And she is aware that I've had some "dancing" experience in the past.

She commented that she didn't understand why anyone who had a legitimate choice would choose such a career, even temporarily, for money, if she wouldn't do it for free.

She then said that of course, if she found a wealthy guy who just happened to be attractive, and wanted to pay her for some level of getting nasty, that'd be OK.

So a number of things bug me about this.

First of all, I would venture that most people who work do so for money. If all of us who are employed won the lottery over the weekend, I'd bet very few of us would report in to work on Monday. Maybe just to say seeya, and give the boss our forwarding address in Maui.

But somehow, it is wrong to trade sexy dancing, or flirtation, for money. Why is that? Our minds, creativity and business talents are eminently for sale, during work hours. Off the clock, only loved ones have access to our deeper thoughts and ideas. Why isn't the same true for sex-related work? Some people may love it and be willing to do it for free -- great for them. But for those who can tolerate it for the nice paycheck, just as they'd only tolerate brief-writing, what's the matter with doing it coldly and calculatingly?

The other thing I found cringe-worthy was the idea that she would welcome an opportunity to be "taken care of" if the man were attractive. He wouldn't necessarily have to have other attributes she'd ideally want in a mate. And he would be in charge of the transaction, so it might not be as lucrative as the pure business approach -- he would decide if a given evening out would be worth a thousand dollars, or a bracelet that he picked out that she might hate.

So the message I picked up on was -- it's OK for women, in a passive way, to accept a pleasant benefactor who makes decisions about our worth and treats us like fragile, undemanding flowers. But it's somehow trashy for us to own this as a BUSINESS, target a motivated and high-paying client pool, and control the billing for our services.

So it ties in to the whole "some feminists are better" thing: There's a good "madonna" way for women to be, both as women and feminists. Which is basically: reject femininity and capitalism as wholly stemming from the patriarchy, and thus ALL BAD. Any femininity that you espouse should be written off as bad conditioning and not enjoyed or flaunted. Any success that you've achieved in the capitalist world should be a bain and not a benefit.

What's missing here is that this BUYS INTO one of the biggest patriarchal myths: women don't, or shouldn't, have the capacity to be logical, rational and utilitarian. They are emotional creatures who need to be protected. They should only want to do certain things for money if they'd do them for free.

Well, guess what? If women's higher nature requires the "I'd do it for free" test, then we wouldn't have many or any opportunities to acquire material resources. But men, for whom it's OK to get a little dirty, would. And the result? I think that'd be called: the patriarchy.

14 comments:

Kim said...

Okay, FUCKING brillant.
Sorry to do a rather empty "Great post!" without making specific comments, but I'm big on the honesty.
And what honestly went thru my head when I read was "FUCKING brillant."

Renegade Evolution said...

I'd do it for free...but I am strange like that.

Octogalore said...

Kim -- thanks!

Ren -- you're lucky that way. I would guess the guys in porn, too, are much hotter than the typical guys in strip clubs. With a few exceptions, and those always made the night go quicker. I have to admit to going home with one particularly hot guy once, but being the materialist scum that I am, I charged him too.

Renegade Evolution said...

I am all for materialist scum!

Cassandra Says said...

Not to bang on the same drum again but...the difference that made no sense that you encountered with your friend? Class. Marrying money is not considered declasse, stripping is. There's also the fact that marrying money is "traditional", even though I always said it was basically prostitution with only one very loyal client.

Octogalore said...

Casandra -- this is true. This particular woman does make mention of "generous men" (basically a euphemism for "in denial about needing to pay for it"). I agree, it's absolutely prostitution, without being able to walk away, money in hand, afterwards. It's prostitution with a life sentence.

It's funny that stripping is culturally viewed as declasse for women to do (but not for men to enjoy), but marrying money is fine. Maybe a passive acceptance of a situation in which a woman continues to be beholden to her benefactor is more acceptable than a woman taking control of money reins. Of course, because it strengthens the patriarchy and keeps women dependent. One would think feminists would therefore support women exercising agency over the acquisition of material goods...

Hedonistic Pleasure Seeker said...

"She commented that she didn't understand why anyone who had a legitimate choice would choose such a career, even temporarily, for money, if she wouldn't do it for free."

Octogalore, what exactly bothers you about this statement again? Just because I can't conceive of it doesn't mean I don't respect (or even admire?) other women with viable choices choosing to do sex work, and being able to detach this work from her own sexual desires.

(Obviously if one woman can't conceive of it another woman CAN, and that's why Las Vegas is such a popular vacation spot, non?)

If I can respect a sex workers agency and choice, then the idea that I find the whole sex-with-an-unattractive-stranger scene skeevy beyond measure should be respected too.

We've all got our boundaries and I'm more than aware of where I've drawn mine. It's not a Madonna/Whore thing. It's more of a "to each her own" thing.

Hedonistic Pleasure Seeker said...

And yes I absolutely agree that marriage is a form of long-term, legal and socially sanctioned prostitution.

I think of prostitution vs. (traditional) marriage as akin to the difference between renting and buying. I've stated my opinion frequently all over the blogosphere but perhaps you've not run into those comments.

A mistress situation would be leasing, I suppose?

Octogalore said...
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Octogalore said...

HPS: thanks for the comment and perhaps I misinterpreted not being able to conceive of something as more negative than it was meant to be.

I do feel that finding “whole sex-with-an-unattractive-stranger scene skeevy beyond measure” is a bit inconsistent with being willing to give longer-term companionship to a more attractive stranger without the kind of control over the transaction that the former situation has. The difference in “skeeviness” seems to be (1) how attractive the guy is, which is kind of like GB Shaw’s “we’ve already established what you are, now we’re just haggling about price”; and (2) how much power the woman has to set her terms, which seems far greater in the former situation.

“And yes I absolutely agree that marriage is a form of long-term, legal and socially sanctioned prostitution.”

I know that this is your belief and I recall in the past we’ve (I think respectfully) disagreed on this point. I never said that marriage is a form of prostitution, but that finding a “generous man” whom one might not be in love with, but who is wiling to offer “generosity” for sex, is indeed prostitution. Not all marriages involve some kind of implicit (or explicit) trade of assets. There are many who’ve been burned by the institution, but it seems a bit unfair to then decide that everyone will inevitably experience that fate. How would you characterize a marriage in which the woman is the breadwinner, or in which the characteristics (looks, money, attraction for one another) are evenly distributed? Sure, it’s an exchange of sorts, but calling it prostitution is inaccurate, and insulting to both parties. To my mind, especially insulting to the woman, because the assumption is she’s the one being paid for, not the one with the financial chops.

I mean no disrespect in mentioning your views here. In fact, it’s because we think alike on many issues that the discrepancies are more interesting to me than disagreements with someone who was coming from a completely different set of beliefs would be.

Hedonistic Pleasure Seeker said...

Octo: I should have clarified that I meant TRADITIONAL marriage, which is absolutely a cash-for-flesh exchange taking place all over the world, including the US ("be a virgin on your wedding day"). Just last year a guy (in the US) put an add in a newspaper offering money for a virgin to marry. It made the news. Also, there are still states in the US where it is still legal for a man to rape his wife because in those states marriage is still seen as a property transaction.

I see modern marriages as mergers more than anything else.

Octogalore said...
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Octogalore said...
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Octogalore said...

Octogalore said...
HPS -- agree, traditional marriages have that aspect, although I think there have probably always been exceptions. But yeah, when an even smaller % of women had financial freedom than the current %, I guess most marriages probably had a big asset-trade component...

One of these days some guy with a big heart, a huge brain, a lust for challenge, and a smokin' bod is going to come along, you'll sweep each other off your feet, and maybe we'll get on the same page on marriage/partnership and men. I'm no Pollyanna, and I do think the roads to the few pots of gold are paved with assholes, but I think there's something less corporate than a "merger" out there in your future.