
Bigotry relies on classification. People who are sexist, racist, ablist, homophobic, transphobic, what have you, have convinced themselves that women, people of color, etc. are X or are not Y. That they are able to feel a particular way about an entire group because the group is homogenous in some way.
Whereas, these people feel that their own group is composed of individuals. Let’s take a white male who doesn’t think highly of blacks or women. He’s decided that blacks are a certain way, and women are a certain way. However, he doesn’t like all white men either. But the reasons he may not like someone in this group allow for more diversity within the group.
That’s why recent statements in bloglandia about individualism are puzzling to me.
There was a discussion which many of you may recall about sex workers, in which some of us who piped up and said we did or do feel good about being able to lend a bit more credibility to the profession by virtue of being educated and not addicted to drugs. Others felt this was not feminist and was exclusionary.
More recently, in another thread, I was referred to as promoting individualism and therefore antifeminist. The context was my suggesting that various women who claimed they were educated and middle to upper class could stand up to patriarchal behavior on the part of their husbands. I was told that I did not understand the capitulation that ALL women need to make as the underclass, and that in suggesting that particular women break out of this trap, I was classist, individualist, etc. It was also stated, to plentiful agreement, that any step women are able to take is purely based on privilege, rather than initiative, guts, creativity, or anything else INDIVIDUAL.
So let’s think about this. By insisting that women are homogenous, aren’t we playing right into the hands of the bigots?
Let’s clarify one point. Obviously, class and other forms of privilege play a huge role in opportunity. But they don’t tell the whole story. Women from equivalent backgrounds can achieve different things, have different belief systems, make an impact in a different way. We are not the sum total of our body parts and family wealth situation. One woman in my law school class, “Keesha,” had a dad who had been a sharecropper (almost sixty years her senior; her mom was one of about six common-law wives). Another woman’s dad was an auto industry tycoon. Now they work at the same firm and make the same income. Keesha, additionally, has had poetry published in major journals and has lauched a successful DV-focused pro bono program. Not everyone who came from her background has the ability to wind up working for a top New York law firm, but don’t we acknowledge that Keesha had some pretty neat individual accomplishments?
Moreover, looking at the marriage example. Do we conclude, because some women really don’t have the economic ability/opportunity to get out of a bad marriage, that none of us can or should, or that we can’t pat ourselves on the back once we do? Absolutely not, in my book. Where I see a woman who’s able to support herself going to womyn’s music festivals on the one hand, and clinging to a patriarch on the other, there’s no amount of female solidarity that makes that the correct strategy.
But, as is my tendency, let’s get rid of all the theory and look at the practice. What if we accept that we are indeed homogenous. And that any privilege we have is on the backs of another women. Any success we have in capitalism is perpetuating the system at a cost to ALL WOMEN.
OK, that’s the deal: what happens?
Well, I don’t much see the point for women to go to college. A four year degree, and certainly a grad degree, are only patriarchal tools to compete for MONEY or STATUS which would be individualist to aspire to. We can audit women’s studies classes and other humanities classes, but law, medicine, business, engineering, etc. are all part of the patriarchy. If we wish to do law or medicine purely pro bono, that is OK, but we cannot afford to go to law or med school if we can’t pay back our loans afterwards, so: let’s just forget that. We can get 2-year degrees and teach or volunteer our time.
Is anyone seeing a problem with this yet? We have effectively formed an even more entrenched underclass than already exists. Women would have zero relationship leverage, much less leverage in politics and industry. Even the beginnings of the media beginning to feature the Helen Mirrens, Hilary Clintons, Mary Meekers, Meg Whitmans as enigmatic and charismatic, if not sexbotty, would change – the only women given any media attention would be the look I used to aspire to in Vegas; as one customer put it: “all eyes, boobs and legs (and not necessarily in that order).” Not a particularly healthy aspiration, I don’t think.
So why NOT individualism? Of course, that doesn’t mean we don’t recognize how lucky we are for being able to achieve it. Or that we don’t do as much as we reasonably can towards charity and activism. But as women we deserve to step up to the dudes and announce we’re here. We’re not all one way. Just like them, some of us have the ability to lead, some of us have the ability to teach, some of us have the ability to create great art, music, literature. Some of us have the ability to make pots of money . Some of us will be their bosses. Our names will be on the polls in national elections. We’ll be living in the mansions reserved for university presidents, and not because we’re married to them. We haven’t forgotten that this is all a privilege, but we’ve come to realize that shame and apology don’t help those who don’t have it. Just like the guys, we’re not some sort of uniform breed or tribe who can be shunted off by pulling our guilt strings.
Or, at least that’s my hope.
54 comments:
Well, as I said in the other thread, besides everything else:
they're full of shit. There's -nothing- more "individualist" than deciding that one's own little saga of throwing out lipstick and abstaining from this and the other thing is somehow benefiting the masses. What they are, are self-absorbed, self-righteous, controlling people who've confused "bad boundaries" with "solidarity."
btw even Marx thought the individual ego was perfectly healthy and normal.
but you know: if you believe in collective action, okay, but um. Somehow I never get the sense that that's what IBTP is about. Like, at -all.-
and no, "you're ruining it for everyone" with that pencil skirt and those high heels is neither radical nor feminism nor yet activism. But keep telling yourselves that it is, by all means. Got to pass the time somehow.
and, oh my fucking god! CLASSIST. that is, um, rich. do they KNOW where they are? do they KNOW who the host is? do they care?...
and you know what else: as far as I can see the bottom line message of that site is that NOTHING does any good, you know, it's all or nothing and clearly it's not all so it's going to be nothing, o how i long for Revolution, pick pick pick.
you know, at least when I wank I'm a bit more straightforward about it?
Anyone who claims that feminism and individualism are mutually exclusive need to look up the terms again. Feminism denies the collectivist patriarchal party line.
The problem with IBTP's commentariat (and not so much with Twisty herself) is that the mutual enforcement they give each other causes a "group think" effect which enforces a party line that is not safe to cross.
I think even in contexts outside feminism, there is often a sense that someone in a group that is disadvantaged who is able or lucky to get onto firmer ground is disloyal or not collective enough -- too individualist. I think this has been in issue for my sister. She was adopted at 7 from Korea, and previously was raped, beaten, and a number of other awful things before finding her way to an orphanage. Although she's certifiably brilliant, she's never been comfortable with achievement, and she seems to feel she doesn't deserve it, or is being disloyal to people where she came by accepting it or going with it.
And it's hard for me to criticize that. I didn't have these experiences, and who knows what my reaction would be if I'd had. Probably very similar.
But a number of women haven't had to deal with these obstacles, and it's hard for me to understand why the "I'm Everywoman" thing still applies in a completely unproductive way.
I think there is a strong element of "groupthink" there that just makes most of the comment threads there downright toxic. I put in my two cents on another thread (about a judge who disallowed the term 'rape' in a rape trial because it was conclusory).
I did recieve some polite thanks for what I hope was a reasonably cure explanation from the legal standpoint, but even within those responses there was a reflexive need to be emotionaly opposed to it anyway, because it is the "evil patriarchy" and one response was all emotional reaction:
"I don’t give a rat’s fucking ass about the fucking developed-by-the-patriarchy “justice” system. Can’t “draw a conclusion”? Fuck that. Can’t “give any woman the courtesy of believing her at face value” is more like it.
Sorry. I don’t mean to be taking it out on my fellow blamers. I just want the revolution, and I want it NOW."
I got the sense there that the comments are more about venting hatred and frustrations than about any attempt at rational discussion. You can pretty much predict that no matter what happens, each comment will end with 'it is all men's fault' - even if it was about how it rained or sunspots or something.
One thing I can't help wondering based on the legal post on there now what those who rail against the 'patriarchal' court system would put in place of it if they ran things. What constitutes 'non-patriarchal courts'? Or economics? I always wonder about that - what system could be put in place that would actually work and be sustainable? I get the sense that no real thought has been put into such issues.
"I want the revolution, and I want it NOW"
:eyes sliding into skull:
Righty, then, you know what you do? You go learn to organize your way out of a paper bag, learn some fucking social and political skills, pick up a damn gun if you think you have to, but -do something.- Don't just sit there on your ass and -whine- about it, i mean -really,- what the fuck do you think "revolution" is? k.
I mean, I think some of them are -revolting,- but...
No, seriously: -what- do they think they mean by that? "Revolution." Do they even know what they want? Because every time I've tried to ask someone like that, it's just been the -vaguest- of answers. They don't really want change, and they certainly don't want to do the real work--inner *or* outer--that would bring it about (starting with, -envision what the fuck it is you WANT-). They just want some sort of external catharsis for their seething frustrations. make world go BOOM.
there's a lot of that about.
OG, i don't think you mentioned your sister before, but yeah, that makes a lot of sense. i know some transnational/transracial adoptees have been forming their own groups; apparently there's a lot to unpack.
back to Blamesville:
wadr, BN, I've said more than enough about the host there and I'm kind of done, but just in general:
fish rots from the head.
sorry, that's crude, and not very nice. but it's true.
you run a place, it takes on a certain tone and tenor, attracts certain people while turning off others--it's not a coincidence. Maybe she's not identical with her loopier regulars--actually i get the impression she doesn't have a load of respect for most of them, for people in general tbh, but she doesn't exactly have much in common with a lot of her commentariat, that's quite true--but,
"by their regulars ye shall know them."
to a point, yes, and most people get trolls or lose control of certain threads at one point or another, especially once a site gets beyond a certain size, i'm not saying otherwise.
but the vibe of the -entire place-...yeah, i'm afraid it -does- have something to do with the host.
t's hard for me to understand why the "I'm Everywoman" thing still applies in a completely unproductive way.
Bad boundaries. "I'm cold, put on a sweater." Some people never really do learn the difference. Politics, unfortunately, can provide a -great- excuse for this sort of invasiveness.
and yes: of -course- individualism is going to be an integral part of feminism as we most of us know it: it's derived largely from Enlightenment principles, that IS very much about individualism.
i think for people who say that, it' a fancy-pants way of saying the classic,
"What do you MEAN you won't put on a sweater? I. said. I'm. COLD. You're so SELFISH."
Here's something only vaguely related but interesting:
harassment of radical feminists online
Unfortunately, if the combined forces of Hollywood cannot regulate the internets, then I don't see how they can.
Nice Twisty slambook y'all got going here.
Octogalore, I can see you don't care for being taken to task over there. Why you continue to do it is your business.
To refute your post - because one women manages to struggle out of poverty doesn't mean poverty isn't a soul-crushing disgrace. It doesn't mean the vast majority of people who remain stuck there are worthless. Some of them are talented and hard working too, just less fortunate.
I think that you're oversimplifying what folks said to you over there, as it your wont.
"And that any privilege we have is on the backs of another women."
How is acknowledging the truth of this a denial of individuality? Or do you believe individuality is only for those who can afford it?
"And that any privilege we have is on the backs of another women."
How is acknowledging the truth of this a denial of individuality? Or do you believe individuality is only for those who can afford it?
Let's assume for a moment that this IS true. (I think it's an over-simplification, but for the sake of argument.) If it's true, then - what? What do we do? Just lie down and die? I know, maybe "the revolution" - but HOW does that happen?
Octo:
Ahhh, I guess I missed more oddity from Twistyworld whilst here in sunny FL contributing to the worldwide exploitation of women?
Here is my humble, meger observation about all that...individualism, education, success, financial security are all fine when SOME people have and achieve them, and horrible kicks in the face to Class Women when other people have them...I mean, can people not SEE the obvious thing that, um, Twisty herself is educated, runs a very popular and successful blog at least, has money, and is Most Certainly a strong personality who does her own thing...aka, very much an individual....and for her that's all fine and good...
Other folk? Well, not so much...they are just building empires on the broken bodies of their sisters and all.
because one women manages to struggle out of poverty doesn't mean poverty isn't a soul-crushing disgrace. It doesn't mean the vast majority of people who remain stuck there are worthless. Some of them are talented and hard working too, just less fortunate.
WHERE did Octogalore say ANYTHING to the contrary??
*headdesk*
DBB – I agree with the idea of “groupthink.” I have been in contact with commenters there outside that site who admit there are some commonalities in our thinking. But voicing that there would be punished.
Because there are the occasional folks who even in the context of the discussion will engage, like LouisaMayAlcott or Spit the Dummy, it’s occasionally a worthwhile exercise for me for a bit until it degenerates.
I agree too that it seems as if the substance of what you said wasn’t credited fully because of its source.
And re “what system could be put in place that would actually work and be sustainable? I get the sense that no real thought has been put into such issues.” Yes!
I think re economics, there’s a sense that we’d somehow have this revolution and then begin a socialist type of shared resources situation. Nobody, of course, would try to evade this by trying to overachieve or hoard more resources. We’d all be blissfully genderlessly happy and not NEED courts and nasty patriarchal stuff like that, thanks.
I kinda agree with you about the efficacy of this approach.
Belle, I too have asked about Revolution. One reason I blog often about where my ideas diverge from rad fem ideas is that I do agree with a number of their starting premises, though by no means all. But the most frustrating thing is what you say about the vagueness of the concept of Revolution. I’ve tried to discuss “what’s step one” and throw out some ideas, but getting into details seems to be a turn-off.
Mandos – hadn’t seen that site. Thing is, some of the women harassed online like Kathy Sierra aren’t radical feminists. This seems to be an odd attempt to own sexual harassment as rad fem specific.
SMMO: welcome.
First off, I’m glad that you acknowledge that what I do is my business. Thanks for that! I had never actually assumed otherwise, though.
“To refute your post - because one women manages to struggle out of poverty doesn't mean poverty isn't a soul-crushing disgrace. It doesn't mean the vast majority of people who remain stuck there are worthless. Some of them are talented and hard working too, just less fortunate.”
Sweetheart, this isn’t a refutation of my post. It’s a strawargument. Go back and read the post again, if you need to.
“I think that you're oversimplifying what folks said to you over there, as it your wont.”
I disagree with this. Sometimes it’s not pretty to see your stuff paraphrased by someone who doesn’t sip the Kool Aid. Deal with it.
“How is acknowledging the truth of [that any privilege we have is on the backs of another women] a denial of individuality?”
For one thing, not all privilege we have is on the backs of other women. Some gains are at a cost to others; others aren’t. Boiling it down to: every advance by a woman means a toll on another? That does deny the many individual circumstances. Do you feel that the success of my law school classmate “Keesha” was at a cost to anyone else? Well, she paid her mom’s medical coverage, so we can point to one poor black woman, at least, who definitely benefited from Keesha’s success. Even if you feel her work at a law firm is corrupt and in some way hurting other women, her pro bono activities are fairly meaningful, and wouldn’t have been possible without her being where she is.
“Or do you believe individuality is only for those who can afford it?”
Talk about twisting. Where are you getting this? Have you actually asked lower income women whether they consider themselves devoid of individuality? I think you can find women in all walks of life who deserve to have their individual activities looked at as their own, not just symptomatic of their circumstances. Of course, ones ability to use leverage to do what one wants and therefore enforce “individuality” increases with material resources. It’s a fact of life. Just like one’s ability to eat, travel, read increases with material resources. Doesn’t mean we don’t do those things, or try to put our own stamp on them.
Well Octogalore you welcome me but then break out the sarcasm complete with insincere endearment. You've talked so much about practical solutions, but your blog seems to be largely about IBTP gossip and tastefully obscured pictures of pretty ladies (you?) and their long hair and toned asses. How tedious.
Ultimately, you're a capitalist. That mitigates your compassion. You will talk about charity in your response to me, and I will reply now. You in your small way, Bill Gates in his large way, are shoveling shit in with one hand and spooning it out with another. Do I prefer that capitalists continue to spoon out with charity? Yes. But it will change little long term.
smmo, what do you make of Twisty herself being the daughter of a rather aggressive capitalist? (a "captain of industry," in her own words). One whom she's noted on at least one occasion with no apparent irony that he's entitled to special treatment (bowing and scraping) in fancy restaurants, on account of he worked hard for it, and from whom she seems to have inherited substantial property? privileges which i don't recall ever seeing her question, amid all the grilling of various "feminine" practices? Or her rant about Walmart commercials, ever catch that one? Or her take that "taste" is what matters in this world?
You know, we've all got our class shit; lord knows I do. But, I don't call myself a -revolutionary- because I can afford to eschew the things I don't like while wallowing in sweet, sweet nihilism and "sexbot" bashing.
"Ultimately, you're a capitalist. That mitigates your compassion. "
Oh shit, capitalists are incapable of compassion??? Octo, want me to reserve us a table for two in the lacking of compassion section of that five star eatery we dine in nightly whilst mocking the pain of the universe and lighting expensive cigars with hundred dollar bills???
And toned asses and long hair aside, which, are you know, such a major world issue, I think the main question here, elsewhere, everywhere has been...
What Is The Plan?
Is there a plan? You know, actual strategy for the dismantling of capitalism, the patriarchy, a supply and demand economy, classism, racism, sexism, basic human nature and the world as we know it? What, exactly, is going to replace this horrible opressive system we're currently living under? Socialism? Communism? Anarchy? Monarchy? Dictatorship? Any other form of government that has been tried, and often has failed, elsewhere in the world and often prove to be just as if not more so exploitive, classist, sexist, and unsatisfying to those living under it?
So yes, if there is a plan, please, let's hear it. I for one am dying to know what the New World Order looks like, and if it will EVER be seen by human eyes before our species no longer exists on this planet...or any other for that matter.
...I mean, if you really want to talk about "class" as intersecting with feminism in any meaningful way, try here,
or here
or here
or here
or here
or for that matter here
or here
Twisty? If you enjoy her writing, great; lots of people do. But if you think she's some sort of revolutionary anti-capitalist? You're kidding yourself.
Octo, want me to reserve us a table for two in the lacking of compassion section of that five star eatery we dine in nightly whilst mocking the pain of the universe and lighting expensive cigars with hundred dollar bills???
LOL!!!!
"if you think she's some sort of revolutionary anti-capitalist? You're kidding yourself."
I don't, so I'm not.
Renegade: I said mitigate, not incapable of. But enjoy your cigars.
The Plan: You've asked serious questions, as such things generally go I probably don't have answers that will satisfy. But I think one could do a lot worse than Sweden or Denmark. A true progressive income tax, social programs up the ass.
Thanks for the Breadnroses recommendation, BD. I appreciate it on its behalf.
smmo:
Yep, some countries in europe certainly do a whole lot better in the social services department, very true...they also have a whole lot of capitalism going on too, though. I mean, Sweden did give the world Saab and Volvo...
But, to have those programs, you have to get Americans, whomever else, to part with even more tax dollars, and most folk are pretty reluctant to do that. Do I think it would be great if more tax money was spent on helping people who need it and programs to do so than, oh, say, a totally pointless war in the Middle East? Hell yes, sign me up for that...
and I do think those are the types of changes, via social and political notice, pressure, and activism that can be made, and are needed....however, to draw notice to them, to fund such things, well, people are going to need some help from more than a few capitalists...
Truly, what is so great about Sweden or Denmark? I suspect it is more a "grass is greener" sort of thing. Not that they aren't necessarily great places to live, but I somehow doubt you'll find nirvana there.
And with regard to IBTP, I have posted there alot today and have found things generally civil, though there are a few people who are seeming more interested in picking a fight or find reasons to find me 'dishonest' and 'creepy' because I didn't apparently admit fast enough that I'm not a prosecutor. Or is that all just my imagination?
dbb:
http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Gender%20Gap/index.htm
dbb:
ACK - broke the link. Here:
http://tinyurl.com/yletv8
SMMO, how warm a welcome do you expect when you’re basically coming here to insult me. First of all, out of 34 posts, only 10% even obliquely mention specific rad fem sites. And yes, a few others reference different brands of feminism because – newsflash – I consider myself a feminist.
As to practical solutions, for starters you’ll find some here, here or here. You may not like them, but they’re sure as shit practical.
And as for your finding my hair and ass tedious, I’m not forcing you to look at them. Man, can’t sell it, can’t give it away for free, what’s a girl to do?
“Ultimately, you're a capitalist. That mitigates your compassion. You will talk about charity in your response to me, and I will reply now.”
Actually, I won’t talk about anything. I’ve discussed my plans as to both activism and charity with you around and you obviously weren’t listening. I answer to my own conscience, ultimately, not to the patriarchy OR the matriarchy.
Ren, I’ll take a seat at that table. I’d love to try to talk about boring incremental strategies that might help two or three or ten women/children/poor people here or there. Obviously that all pales before the REVOLUTION that others are contemplating. Too bad they won’t tell us how they’re actually doing it.
As Ren says, to convert our system here to a Swedish or Icelandic system, we’d need some significant tax increases, and guess whose dollars would be needed to fund these? If you think capitalist funds are so corrupt, possibly you feel that our money shouldn’t be leveraged to enforce our existing welfare programs or the enhanced Swedish ones?
While Sweden and other countries mentioned in your link are to be commended for their policies re the gender gap, these countries aren’t the be-all-end-all in all respects. Sweden in the mid 00s has been experiencing substantial unemployment, as much as 15-20%. Sweden has less per capita disposable income than the U.S., Canada, Western Europe and a number of Pac Rim countries. The top personal income tax is 57% -- so you know, even though I don’t have problems paying more taxes if they’re well administered, don’t pretend capitalists don’t have a key role in funding the public interest programs.
Your strategy of dissing the capitalists, multiplied over a number of people, wouldn’t be the best strategy to get such a system going, since given the above I think you’d catch more flies with honey.
Let’s take an example: you’re going out to dinner with two friends, one of whom is a shelter volunteer and the other is a bestselling novelist. The novelist has just completed a project and has volunteered to spring for drinks and dessert, as well as to treat the shelter volunteer. Would your solution be:
1) Insist that everyone split (even if the shelter volunteer would be happy to be treated and doesn’t feel it’s condescending);
2) Thank the novelist, inwardly hoping that she’s also donating her time as well as more of her million-dollar income than what she’s shared today, but realizing it isn’t really your business to lecture about it;
3) Criticize the novelist, telling her that she’s a capitalist without sufficient compassion, and she can play mini-Bill Gates on her own time, thanks.
Because if you do (1) or (3), these two women aren’t going to want to have dinner with you anymore.
Oh well then. Folks won't want to have dinner with me - that shuts me right the fuck up.
I deal with people of varying income levels quite well, but thanks for the concern.
My suggestion that we need a truly progressive income tax here does not war with my disdain for the blood suckers at the top. In fact, it fits quite nicely. It doesn't work to ask people to play nice, to hope that corporations don't fuck up the environment and fuck over their own workers. So tax the hell out of them. They may not be any nicer, but they'll be poorer.
A welfare state does not require that high a tax increase, especially if you factor insurance into people's taxes. No country has a defence budget as large as the USA even by economic proportion, and even a small tranche of those funds could go towards major improvements in social welfare.
Hey, DBB, you're a Mandos now!
The fact that I am some kind of demonic underworld figure now is just so, so funny.
Unfortunately, tax increases typically hit the small businessperson rather than the large corporations. The latter group can find loopholes and writeoffs and has tax attorneys to worry about audits etc.
Re having dinner, SMMO, do you understand the concept of analogy? I'm sure you're a delightful dinner companion; however, my larger point was that there will need to be some negotiation and discussion with people in different categories before any radical change can be implemented. Typically, insulting them isn't a really effective strategy for getting them closer to your side of the table.
It might help if we stopped considering corporations "persons."
"trust busting" sounds like a good idea right about now, too.
I'm sure Scandinavia ain't perfect; but on the whole, besides unemployment figures, what i'd -really- want to look at is quality of life.
last study i checked the U.S. was doing pretty poorly compared to quite a lot of Western Europe, not just Scandinavia. and i think some other places as well. It did not surprise me.
I don't agree with OG or Ren about a number of things, I suspect. I still would take their compassion over that of a lot of people I've encountered.
"by their deeds ye shall know them."
Appreciate that, Belle. Sometimes I think sense of humor is a key part of being able to see eye to eye on some issues but not others, in a friendly and productive way. I feel like the word "grim" finds its way in here somehow too... but my daughter's calling so I'll have to work that out later.
Belle:
Well hell, that's part of the reason I like ya :)
DBB was banned! Before OG!
Mandos - what do you mean I'm a mandos? You mean for being banned by IBTP? Apparently it doesn't take much to be banned there if you're a man.
I guess you have to agree with them 100% on everything even off their site. Or something. I really resisted posting there, because I figured the piling on or something would happen if I did. I tried to be respectful and stick to the topic at hand. I guess that wasn't enuogh. I guess dissenting viewpoints truly aren't welcome there. It is kind of sad for me to see, but then I'm not surprised.
NONONO, LMA said, "Geezuz, the Mandos’s just keep coming back."
So you are a Mandos. I am an archetype! Whoopee! I have long wanted to be an archetype.
The sad thing is that I was starting to change my mind about my initial impressions about the site there - because it started out as an actual conversation about the topic. Unfortunately, it quickly degenerated into attacks on me and my ultimate banning, apparently mostly for who I am not for anything I said. Thus confirming all of my bad impressions about the site and those who post there regularly.
it's fascinating, to me, that this veered into a discussion of capitalism -- not individualism.
from what i've read, no one is really discussing individualism -- which is an ideology or belief system we all share -- and social processes called "individuation" (of which Keesha -- each of us is an example) and what others are calling individuality.
as far as I understand BfP, btw, she's anti-statist and anti-nationalist, only considering capitalism in terms of its proliferation via state power. she explicitly said she didn't identitfy as a socialist and kind of recoiled from the idea that she is. she did articulate that recoiling as a kind of knee jerk reaction against the lable which is pretty typical in the US, sure.
In that sense, I read BfP, not as a marxist/socialist who has a critique of capitalism from *that* perspective. Rather, she's interested in preserving and advancing policitized communities against the onslaught of the state and market (capitalism). And thus asserting politicized collective identities as a bulwark against unthwarted state or economic power She's not really interested in transforming the system or examining what class is all about: exploitation of labor.
hence, i wouldn't consider that much of a class analysis or a concern with capitalism -- except as it can be criticized for its encroachments on historically oppressed communities. in which case, the basic operations of capitalism are left intact as long as it isn't harming any particular communities on the basis of race, sexuality, gender, etc.
the post on the alienation of labor -- the realization that bananas get to the market on the basis of a vast complex social division of labor that obscures the process from us -- was a good example of the limits of such an analysis.
if the same tears well up in your eyes to think of the hands that tapped out the code through which one is able to blog (for free!) at blogspot, or tears well up to think about the way that the labor of the human resources manager at the company that hosts your blog go unappreciated as the source of our sustenance, then we're getting somewhere in terms of what it really means to think about class analysis that is truly opposed to capitalism.
but the fact is, tears don't well up because the enemy is posited, not as capitalism in this analysis, but the moral failures of whiteness, middle classness, maleness, ability, straightness, and nationality.
from this view, everyone is entrenched in an individualism that they never escape. :p
the rhetoric of community, class woman, etc. etc. never really undermines capitalism, just gives it new ways to surveil, police, control, subjugate, and form us as the unique snowflakes we are -- just like everybody else.
well, I don't know--aren't there forms of socialism that are more about small communities and more anti-State? anarcho-socialism? or am I completely talking out of my ass?
anyway i did say that at least i knew that the way Some People are trying to define "individualism"=talking out'n -their- asses.
...rather, what they seem to be advocating is a kind of selective and unacknowledged Borg-ism, so, yeah: anti-individuation.
Hi, QD!
In a way, I think individualism, in the wiki sense of "a term used to describe a moral, political, or social outlook that stresses human independence and the importance of individual self-reliance and liberty. Individualists promote the exercise of individual goals and desires" as related to capitalism, so I think that's why it's hard to untangle them in these conversations.
Typically, individual goals in this society are in the context of wealth, power, learning, or contribution. To be able to actualize any of these, one needs to leverage the current system which is capitalism. So anyone who identifies individual goals is tagged with capitalism, along the lines of SMMO's comments here. And anyone who's part of the capitalist system, in the sense of profiting from activities that have value in our society's marketplace, is similarly tagged as too focused on individualism. The theory being that if she were more "compassionate" towards "everywoman," she wouldn't be participating in the system.
The flaw in this argument, to me, is that we need to look at the benefits and costs of our activities in relation to the current system, not to an idealized and unachievable one that isn't currently operative.
the thing is, it IS a capitalist system, so one way or another most if not all of us are participating in it.
True, but I think certain folks view level of participation as proportional to material reward. Even though that's a flawed assumption for a number of reasons.
well, yeah. actually it's just plain ol' capitalist thinking turned simply on its head. (i.e. the more you have the harder you must have worked for it, and therefore the worthier you are). as with so many other things.
Up to a point. Certainly if someone's wealth is due to job income, that's the assumption. But where someone's just filthy rich because of inherited wealth, I don't think there's an assumption of worthiness. Maybe luckiness, or glamor (eg Paris Hilton, Ivanka Trump, Twisty Faster -- glamor not in the femininity sense but in terms of her lifestyle and 5-star meals and leisure) but not worthiness.
Octo - I don't know about that. I had a lengthy argument once with an extreme right-winger about the estate tax and in the course of the discussion, I pointed out that inherited wealth isn't earned income, and he vehemently denied this, saying it was "earned" because whomever died would have first decided that the person to inherit was "worthy" of the money and so only then put it in the will. So it was "earned" money.
(The main thrust of the argument was about the b.s. that estate taxes are double taxation and a wealth tax, when in functional reality, they are not either).
Interesting. Seems like an extreme POV though. Most of the people about whom those decisions are made are children -- who's to know how hard-working they will be? Parents aren't the best judges. I certainly think my daughter is absolutely perfectly worthy, but I know she'll need to work to convince others of that.
Well, it's like this: generally speaking people are kind of don't-ask-don't-tell as long as you pay your bills on time and look comfortable and happy and don't ask -them- for money (directly) (without a good cause). Therefore, if you're doing well, the default assumption is that you deserve it.
And honestly, i think a lot of the time, people are more concerned with the -appearance- that the heir(ess) is One Of Them than anything else. witness: Gee Dubya. Or...
Or, you know: guy's CEO of a Fortune 500 company. He works 50-80 hours a week. He pulls in a hefty salary from the job...but he -also- has a hefty trust fund. And, Dad pulled the strings to get him the job.
but, he's -working-, as in he goes to the office and...does stuff, so...
(i admit it: have you seen "American Psycho?" because that's what's coming to mind here).
Read the book. Yes, I hear you. The example of the working guy with the trust fund is very Donald Trumpian. He'd have gone BK a couple of times if he didn't have his daddy (who was the real entrepreneur) backing him up. But some see him as some kind of visionary, entitled to be an ass because he's got a distinct business skillset.
But where the idea of "certain folks view level of participation as proportional to material reward" is definitely capitalism turned on its head, as you say, our illustration of why the capitalist wealth=worthy approach is faulty is analagous to why the participation in capitalism = proportional to material reward is faulty. I make about 10x now what I made in the auto industry, but I feel like I was in more of a capitalist position then.
well, and Dubya.
yeah, the movie was actually a lot better than the book; for once. dumped most of the gore; the satire really came out a lot stronger, and --surprise! woman director, woman writer, and it shows, i think--the only even remotely non-cardboard/sympathetic characters in the thing are women, and the sheer pathetic ridiculousness as well as the ugliness of the good ol' boy, 80's style, culture really comes through.
besides my squick factor at AP the book, i think generally Ellis writes like an emu, and frankly is a little too close to that type--the burnt-out inch-deep yuppie i mean--to satirize it successfully.
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