
from womenshealthmag.com
The only cooking I do is boiling and microwaving. I rarely clean, and I don’t fix things around the house that break. I don’t do a lot of volunteering at my daughter’s school. Truthfully, I do no volunteering at her school; the only thing I do is march in semi-annually with a good-sized check. I have been known to leave until the last minute preparation for school events that most parents (read: moms) have been aware of and on top of for months.
Despite these failings, I think I'm a good mother, partner and friend. I'm active in a couple of public interest organizations. I earn a nice, unfeminine income which hopefully will allow both of us to retire in ten (OK, a dozen, I just checked the market) years. I stay within 15lb of my college weight (which was near-anorexic) and I go to a trainer 3x/week to make sure that weight stays in the right places.
But on an irrational though frequent level, I feel inadequate and as if my contributions – to family, to those less fortunate, to work, to myself – are lazy and shoddy.
I think this has something to do with being female. Now, luckily many women have avoided my level of analness about weight and competitiveness at work and all kinds of other Type A crap. But many of my friends, whether they work at home, in an office, or are homemakers, feel like they’re not doing enough in usually all areas. Even if they rationally know there are 24 hours in a day and they are spending them as intelligently as possible.
How many guys do you know in 2-income households who are doing maybe 10-30% of the household/childcare work and don’t feel concerned in the slightest? Or, how many guys feel like if they are making money and changing the occasional diaper or attending the occasional Little League game, they don’t need to keep themselves in shape? Guys who wear your bra size but look pityingly at your miked Lean Cuisine? OK, you can stop counting now.
Feminists, many times, are women. And feminists’ issues with guilt reflect those of their constituents.
Have you ever looked on one of the big, trendy feminist websites and seen an article with no relevance to women? A well-written, interesting article about a critical issue of interest to us liberals, but with no specific gender angle? Pretty often, right?
But do you ever notice on sites dedicated to other liberal issues, whether it be health care or poverty or energy or race or immigration, articles dealing with gender that do not deal with the main focus of the site? Probably not so often, right?
Does this stem from the tendency of women to feel that maybe we are not enough?
Donna Darko , Dr. Violet Socks and Echidne discuss the phenomenon of feminism’s breadth. Donna applauds intersectionality within feminism but is concerned if the situation becomes one in which “it’s not directly related to women’s issues.” Echidne says: “if feminist activists choose to use their time and resources on issues other than women's rights, who is it who will speak for women? I see a big problem right there, because the usual assumption is that feminists are to take care of all issues having to do with women so that the rest of the society doesn't have to bother with those. But if feminists are busy saving the world in other ways, well, women's special concerns will be mostly ignored.”
And therein lies the rub.
It’s critical that feminism not be a middle/upper class movement for able-bodied American heterosexual white women. It’s critical that popular young authors don’t cut corners with a textbooky chapter on intersectionality, but instead actually discuss all aspects of feminism – reproductive issues, immigration, trafficking, career issues including issues of sex work, domestic and other kinds of violence, etc. – in a way that integrates concerns of women of all varieties of race, orientation, income, (dis)ability, without gratuitously separating out certain issues. It’s critical for feminists to be able to look at all issues – whether it be the policies of candidates for president; the pros and cons of Planned Parenthood or NOW; glass ceilings at the soup kitchen, supermarket or investment bank; the efficacy of microloans – in a way that contemplates the implications for all women, not just women who look like them.
As should be clear, I do think that some feminists have taken a “what’s relevant to ME” approach without looking at how a particular issue affects all women. I’ve gotten some wake-up calls personally in this regard.
But that should not mean that feminism as a movement loses sight of the fact that it’s supposed to be ABOUT women. That the true inclusion of all women does not mean taking the focus off women.
Because as Echidne and Donna say, if we are not for ourselves, then who will be?
Often, as women, we leave ourselves last in our efforts to be about everything. We ignore the depth for the breadth. Just as we handle two or three shifts (often one or two more than our male partners, if our partners are male), we apply the same philosophy to our feminism. We try to be the movement for all groups who are sidelined. We don’t have a problem addressing other concerns, even without including gender in the analysis. And we’d never be so bold or crass to inquire why blogs or print media covering other causes doesn’t address our issues. They’ve got other fish to fry! Important fish! Maybe, more important!
How often do we see a guy in divorce court, having given over his career to the demands of childcare, realizing that his wife and her new young lover will be living a different kind of life from the one that will now be available to him, as her lawyers have cleverly minimized his support payments and he must now reenter a hostile job market? How often do we see male Silda Spitzers, dutifully standing by as we enumerate our failings, because we have the power and leverage to make them feel this is the necessary, the unselfish thing to do? Unselfish, because although we told them that we were equal partners and that their household/support contributions were just as critical, when push comes to shove, when we betray them in the most fundamental ways, we expect them to understand just how equal their contributions really are.
Have you ever been at some event for your kid’s school? Often, the principal will thank the volunteers. Someone sewed the costumes, baked the food, made the invitations, did the fundraising. These folks will get a big round of applause, or even some lovely flowers. They will come out in front of the other parents, together, as they are lauded for their generosity. Do you ever notice a common theme? Sure, there will be the dude who got his company to underwrite something (a phone call), or the guy who built some of the scenery. Yes, the occasional flexing of wallet or biceps. But percentagewise, there will be an XX dynamic going on. Why? Because for us, the claps and the flowers are enough. Even if, ultimately, they don’t pay our bills or feed our children or go on our resumes. That’s OK. We’re women, and we’re here to help.
We have come a long way, baby. But we still have limited safe spaces. The streets, the workplace, the home, all are fraught with compromise. Some of us have managed to whack the weeds and make things work tolerably, but many of us still struggle.
We do have one place that’s our own. Feminism. Amid all the other eminently worthwhile causes out there clamoring for our willing hands, that one’s about us first and foremost.
I hope.
52 comments:
This resonated with me a lot:
Often, as women, we leave ourselves last in our efforts to be about everything.
This is something I struggle with a lot. And I think it's partly due to how women are socialized: as caretakers. We are socialized to put others' needs ahead of our own, and told this is a virtue. And when you've been getting that message from day 1, it's pretty damn hard to resist.
But I try. I push back against those feelings that tell me I'm selfish if I take care of myself or if I don't donate to every cause or volunteer on every committee or whatever.
And to be honest this is why I had to take a step back from certain corners of the blogosphere. It was making me feel too guilty, reading about all these causes I wasn't involved in, and the not so subtle undertone of being a bad person if I wasn't vocal for every cause out there.
Well, on this day of all days, I detect something else at work entirely: Not enough Catholicism, pounded into the head!
Of course you are not good enough. You are SHIT! Jesus Christ had to die for the likes of your sorry ass! Poor Mary and Joseph weep for all eternity, because you are no damn good! Wipe that smile off your face! Sure, go ahead, work out, stay thin, blabbity blabbity, but we all die and face Judgement! And I hope you've figured out what you will say ON THAT DAY!!!!
Seriously, I think this nothing-is-good-enough-unless- canonized syndrome allows one to get off the hook, in some strange way I have not yet figured out. I should probably go back to the Spiritual Exercises of St Ignatius, in which, I should admit, I got an F.
Have a great St Patrick's Day! :D
And it is SOOOOO fabulous to see you blogging again!!!! :)
Excellent article!
Bottom line, the dismissal of women's issues, all women's issues, is sexism.
See, me, I get no real satisfaction from the pats on the back. I'm not here to help. Oh, I'm willing to help those I love sometimes, especially if they really need it and they ask nicely, but in terms of general orientation? I'm just not a support personality.
It's always interested me that in a man this would be totally unremarkable but in a woman it tends to provoke shock and outrage.
Amber -- it's definitely an enticing message. Yeah, the dividing line between selfish bitch and responsible, focused and hardworking is often you know what.
Daisy -- thanks for the kind words. Yes, there's definitely a religious aspect here as well. And given who supposedly gave the apple to the innocent dude, it's clear who's supposed to accept the lion's share of the guilt.
Donna -- much appreciated. That's definitely the bottom line. Why do we insist on diluting it?
Cassandra -- amen (that's for Daisy). Yeah, that's another aggressive/assertive, selfish/focused, shrill/tough dual-meaning thing. You know what the companion term for "support personality" is?
Sucker.
I think Donna's nailed it: none of the issues you describe are outside feminism's just purview because all of them impact women. Obviously, racism, homophobia, transphobia, classism, ageism, ableism, etc. directly impact women because roughly half of all those oprressed by those isms are women.
Less obviously, some percentage of those ex-husbands you mention will meet and get involved with women, and the impact of those men's situations will impact those women, though that gets lost in the ever-present sarcastic cry "Won't someone think of teh menz!"
Dan -- I'm not quite sure that's what Donna meant, although I'll let her speak to that.
As to "none of the issues you describe are outside feminism's just purview because all of them impact women," if you read carefully you'll see I don't disagree with that. What I said is that because it's FEMInism, and not ANYism, it should focus the discussion of those issues on their relationship to women who are affected by those issues.
Otherwise, the argument makes no sense. You're basically saying that any issue that isn't male-only is a feminist issue. So why not discuss picture frames? I bet more than half the buyers are those are women. Hot damn, it's a great feminist issue!
If you feel that feminism doesn't need to relate any "ism" discussion to women, then why not skip over to a medical site and ask them to pen some articles about women? The articles don't have to do with health, obviously women have bodies so it's automatically going to relevant no matter what!
Or, maybe go to a GLBT-focused site and ask for some articles on women! But, not dealing with GLBT issues, just about women. Some women are LBT so it's all good! No need to actually DISCUSS the subject area. It's all within the purview!
And finally, you said "some percentage of those ex-husbands you mention will meet and get involved with women, and the impact of those men's situations will impact those women". Let me get this straight. My example dealt with husbands who divorced women who'd given up their careers to support them as homemakers. So you're saying, what if these guys find new (presumably, newer model!) women. These women will now benefit from the fact that the guy's high-priced lawyer helped him keep the largesse. As feminists, our glasses are therefore half full!
I think this is actually the best support for my argument that I could have hoped for, Dan. You've demonstrated the likelihood of other liberal movements giving serious and accurate voice to feminist issues.
Dan,
FEMinism should not be diluted, as Octagalore and I said.
Until anti-racism is replaced by anti-poverty, immigration reform, subprime mortgage lending reform, anti-war, prison reform, etc., we shouldn't replace feminism with anti-racism, anti-classism, anti-war, anti-globalization, etc.
The only reason feminism is diluted and not other -isms is sexism. I think Rebecca Walker, Oct and I all agree feminism should be directly related to women's issues.
Thanks, Donna. It's amazing that this even needs to be explained. If we stated that another movement should keep the focus on its core issue, we'd get some inquiries as to our sanity.
By the logic that other liberal causes must be feminist ones, why not just give male liberals our votes? Their issues are our issues, so obviously they've got our best interests at heart. Of course, they make more on the dollar and don't give birth to babies or anything, but those are just minor issues...
It's always interested me that in a man this would be totally unremarkable but in a woman it tends to provoke shock and outrage.
Mm-hmm.
And see, what I hate is, when people just *expect* me to do something "pro bono." To me, it's insulting. Like they don't value my time and ability. I'm sorry, but creating a web site is WORK. With rare exception, you gotta pay for it, or do it yourself. My time is valuable and limited.
By the logic that other liberal causes must be feminist ones, why not just give male liberals our votes? Their issues are our issues, so obviously they've got our best interests at heart.
If anti-racism were replaced by anti-poverty, anti-war, immigration/subprime mortgage lending/prison reform movements, anti-racism would also be a "pet issue."
Octogalore: It does seem that we agree, but I am confused on one point -- given that, for example, racism falls on both men and women, what does it mean to "focus the discussion on their relationship to women who are affected by thise issues?" Does racism that effects men of color not effect women of color as well?
I am not saying that "feminism doesn't need to relate any 'ism' to women," I'm saying that every "ism" already does relate to women.
Donna: I don't know what anti-racists you spend time with, but the ones I spend time with see the links between racism and poverty, racism and immigration, racism and subprime mortgage lending, racism and war, racism and prison, etc. In fact, I'm not sure how one would begin to talk about any of those things and exclude race from the discussion unless they didn't understand that we live in a white supremacist society. It's not replacement, it's what anti-racist work is.
If feminism isn't anti-racist, then how is it not a movement for white women instead of all women? If it's not anti-classist, how is it not a movement for rich women and not all women? None of this is anything I've made up, I'm repeating what women of color have been criticizing white feminism for decades on.
"given that, for example, racism falls on both men and women, what does it mean to 'focus the discussion on their relationship to women who are affected by thise issues?' Does racism that effects men of color not effect women of color as well?"
It means that racism in the context of a feminist discussion should be focused on issues faced by WOC. The issue of racism generally is a critical one, but better discussed generally elsewhere. Same with poverty. The feminist issues there relate to issues faced by poor women and the gender implications of poverty. For feminism to be as effective and focuses as other isms, it needs to have the courage of its convictions.
Feminism focuses around issues involving obstacles and challenges for WOMEN. These women are off different colors, classes, levels of able-bodiedness, etc. So all these women should be discussed. But discussing the other -isms generally isn't FEMInism.
"If feminism isn't anti-racist, then how is it not a movement for white women instead of all women? If it's not anti-classist, how is it not a movement for rich women and not all women?"
See above. Of course it is, or ideally should be, anti all other isms. But its thematic focus should be on its own ism, just like anti-racism isn't going to focus on gender without a discussion of race. And that's how it should be.
If you opened an anti-racist publication and saw an article about women's entry into certain jobs, with NO mention of race, wouldn't you be concerned? Or would you say, as you've tossed out here, "hey, no problem, some women are of color, so it's all within the purview!" I'd bet not.
"None of this is anything I've made up, I'm repeating what women of color have been criticizing white feminism for decades on."
Nope. WOC have been criticizing white feminists for not including concerns of WOC in anything other than a footnoted way. That's legitimate. They have not done what you are doing here, which is to suggest that feminism simply encompass all other movements without need for a common binding concern.
I am not a WOC, but there are some here, and I would not be surprised if they are somewhat taken aback by your characterization.
Dan,
What we're saying is feminism SHOULD NOT BE REPLACED by other isms because of sexism.
Good post, Octogalore. I agree with you, and with Echidne and Donna.
One of the things that is striking to me about contemporary feminism online is how often feminism isn't the focus. Instead it's trans issues, or racism, or something. All of which are important causes, but they're not feminism.
I think it's symptomatic of the patriarchal view -- which we've all internalized to some extent -- that humanity is male, and women are the other. Nothing about women (even though we're the majority of the human race) can possibly be as important or as pressing as anything involving men.
Internalized sexism.
What's really nauseating is watching Dan/white men/men of color get excited about this comprised feminism.
Thanks, Violet. Yes, the internalized sexism is exactly why women need to keep feminism focused. Because yeah, the default is always male, and if we aren't vigilant, that will be the case with our movement as well.
I've noticed that a random animal will always be referred to as "him," for example, and have to consciously fight doing this around my daughter, when we're at the zoo or see a dog or cat (cats, BTW, may be the only exception to this... wonder why?) Because this is so ingrained, if we don't insist that feminism focus on women (which seems so obvious!), nobody else will.
Donna -- absolutely. It's amusing (or would be if I had a sense of humor about this) that dan is so staunch in insisting to a bunch of feminists what feminism should be. Would he have the ovaries to go over to a disability-related, poverty-related or race-related blog and make a similar statement? Anyone who thinks this is likely, I've got some great Bear Stearns stock to sell you.
Men and women experience racism but women experience it differently. First, white women have to hear how black women experience it and then black women have to hear how white women experience it. That happens in feminist CR groups.
Then projects are developed to fight specific roadblock to self sufficiency and change institutions. All women, work together according to their ability to achieve these goals.
In 3rd wave feminism there is a view of women as a caste in society, intersecting from different classes and races. The female experience connection is felt across race and class and species lines. Women as a Caste can learn how each female experiences oppression in her place and commit to eliminating it together. That commitment is the revolutionary aspect of feminism. Why feminism is so precious.
Feminist truth comes out of the many working together and the analysis of that work and the analysis institutional change that results.
I think that analysis of the change and its results is what we feminists are doing now, because of Hill's bid for leadership.
The whole culmination of what we did with our lives in the world during the 1970's and 1980's is staring back at us.
This is feminism. It is why only feminism can heal the world.
Violet
Your comment about how you are seeing things like the trans issue getting all the attention on feminist site.
I think the issue is that these questions are not being given feminist analysis on those supposedly feminist sites.
On the so called feminist sites on the web, Left voices tell women/feminists what they are supposed to think about the issue. They present the experiences of the affected group and then give the "progressive" analysis of the left.
Any voiced raised as a woman /born women is shouted down.
I have debated welfare with women who insisted that it be tied to reproduction and increased only if you produce more babies and they could not see why this is a MALE concept of welfare designed to remove the father's responsibility; not designed to help women rise from poverty.
These women would consider them self environmentalists and feminists and progressive but it is all separate in their minds - welfare is one thing - environmental issues are different - they never make the connections.
ALL THOSE WOMEN CLAIMED TO BE FEMINIST.
This is why discussions of class don't seem relevant to some feminists. Because the political positions are not feminists - they are male identified left positions. Yet class is the essential feminist concern because single women are on their own in the world of predatory, patriarchal males with power. Women have a lot t say to one another about how we made our money and way in the world.
Read, Phyllis Chesler and Donna Hughes if you can find them. "Women's Inhumanity to Woman" and "Patriarchy:Notes of an Expert Witness by Phyllis Chesler and everything on Donna Hughe's website. They are some the few places where it is still going on in the sense of seeing intersections issues through a feminist analysis. When you do this, there is no conflict between feminism and class, race, species, etc. We are a caste inside of which all other issues exist and are being dealt with. However, this all stems from the concept of sisterhood. Save your sister, save yourself.
Sisterhood is the essential ingredient without which none of this can happen. It is hard to watch women saying no to Hillary.
Happy Spring Equinox today. We celebrate birth on this day. May we birth the 3rd wave together. Color eggs from Free chickens. Run with the Great Hare!
The issues all intersect but there are too many men and women who want to REPLACE feminism with other issues. This isn't happening in other movements so the motivation is sexism. Imagine if there was a huge push to replace anti-racism with feminism and anti-classism. It isn't remotely happening.
Donna
I was trying to say that the replacement of women's rights happens when the feminist analysis is silenced. Not when the issues are addressed.
Every issue affects women - the problem is that the answers are all coming from left males. Women do not make policy in this country - anywhere.
Why aren't feminist defining a feminist foreign policy that deals with the global status of women ? Obama has a global policy - so does Hillary - where is feminist foreign policy discussed much less influence the actions of our leaders?
Hillary went to the Beijing Conference where women from every country voted to start acting globally as a caste.Still feminists in the US are only starting to conceive of a feminist foreign policy. The lack of feminist analysis has allowed the US to have a right-wing religious foreign policy doing a Taliban on global abortion and birth control rights.
Why don't feminist have a feminist position on welfare benefits tied to reproduction? Because these sacred cow are the property of the male left. So the Clintons are constantly attacked for gutting that system and substituting job training and jobs with no benefits tied to reproduction.
Obama says his grandmothers fear of strange black men on the street is racist. Where are the screams of rage and the rape statistics? The truth is that EVERY male on the street and in the home is now a very real threat to every women.
So I do not think it is the issues that distract women from women identified analysis but the way we insist on letting the boys control the discussion about the issues. They set the agenda, define the terms, call dissenters racists, and "middle class white women" Oh the horror.
I believe 3rd wave should go beyond constructed divisions of the left, yet deal with every issue progressively and search for progressive unity within the Gender Caste. I think feminist control of inter-sectional questions by feminist analysis and woman identified programs are a unifying approach to differences within the Gender Caste.
So when you see feminists writing totally non woman identified beliefs or positions challenge them as to why and how their position ends women's dependency on men, furthers woman's liberation or achieves equal rights, responsibilities and opportunities. How does that political position end sex role stereotyping? How do the political positions create or further women's self-sufficiency? How does that political position address the individual's right to be safe and control their own body?
We can bring the feminist analysis back to these inter sectional issues by shifting the focus.
GC -- welcome!
"Every issue affects women - the problem is that the answers are all coming from left males. Women do not make policy in this country - anywhere."
I see this as partially true. Yes, the lefty males appear to be dictating the agenda and women aren't in (many) policymaking positions.
But. Many (not all) women who are influential in feminism are also adopting a male lens, from the standpoint of prioritizing other lefty causes over feminism. It's not just the men doing this. I like Feministing, Feministe (especially), and Pandagon. But on all these sites, the range of issues is much less centered on feminism than sites focusing on other issues are centered on their particular issues.
I'm not talking about the occasional personally-focused article; those are great. It's good to get to know the bloggers better. But a surprising of the political articles have only tangential relevance to feminism.
So yes, the answers are coming from lefty men, but some of the same answers are coming from lefty women.
And this is fodder for another post, but I think the identification of women with many issues equally, in contrast to the identification of other groups with their group's priority first and then other issues (which is completely understandable and actually laudable) is why Hillary didn't seize the lead a long time ago.
GC,
We're talking about two different things. Of course, EVERY MOVEMENT should have an intersectional analysis. What we're saying is feminism is the only movement that people are trying to REPLACE with other movements.
An illustration is if the anti-racism movement were REPLACED by feminism and the GLBT movement. It isn't remotely happening and the reason feminism is the only movement that people want to REPLACE with other movements is sexism.
Another illustration is if the white, male, progressive, leftist movement were REPLACED by feminism, the GLBT movement, the labor movement and so on because people hated white men so much. This isn't REMOTELY happening.
Octo and Donna
I feel the issue as feminist passivity. Of course the women on Feministe and Alas a Blog and Feministing and the board of national NOW and Ms. -all what used to be our organizations are now controlled by left women NOT feminists. There is no feminist analysis coming from those places. All of this became clear to me when they did not support or use the war to free Muslim women. So this is old news to me , and I am on to thinking about the new feminist movement to come.
All that blog doublespeak is not feminist and neither are they. Oh shock - gasp -- How dare I? I do.
I believe feminism is for women and has an analytical construct which these women do not understand. Who can blame them? Feminist theory is not one of their text books. They do not read feminist authors - they read left women's on common dreams. But I and you must think now about the feminism that has been replaced in the discussions you refer to in your comments. We must start posting the feminism that is missing from all these discussions. At least it is clear now to those of us who put women's rights first and understand the connections to other movements in a feminist way. I was all alone in challenging the politics on these sites and eventually was kicked off most of them because i said their perspective was not feminist. How dare I? Who did I think I was? Now I am saying, you must also write that you see no feminist perspective in their analysis or just start developing feminist political positions on your own sites.
I am so glad too see actual feminist sites surfacing, Violet's, this one, Muslim Hedonist, Chesler's Chronicles Echinde and I hate the pat...and so many many others; more every day because of Hillary. This is a big deal to me and excites me. I have felt very alone without others who were feminists but met many interesting right wing women with whom I found things in common.
to not too, geez
This is the real difference between male identified women and women identified women which has nothing to do with special qualities (like gentleness) but everything to do with who you identify with and stand for against oppression.
To really understand the difference between left male identified women and feminist women identified women, read "Woman's Inhumanity to Woman by Phyllis Chesler.
Donna,
I have not suggested that feminism be "replaced" by anything. If you think I have, you have misread me.
Octogalore, when I see men of color write sexist things in spaces that have racism as their primary focus, I call them out on it.[1] Some men of color have reacted to this by accusing me of trying to take the focus off of racism, but women of color in the space have been quick to set the straight on the point. No woman of color has ever told me that their experience of racism and sexism is such that it was meaningful for them to put them into different boxes. Quite the contrary.
[1] Fill in the examples to your heart's content, I do not give people a pass on their privilege along one axis because they are oppressed along another.
All of this became clear to me when they did not support or use the war to free Muslim women.
War never frees women.
Leftism and feminism are not mutually exclusive. They work together but it's true many leftist women have not read women's studies books and this is because many women are turned off by the lack of intersectionality in the typical women's studies book at Border's.
GC -- thanks for the support.
I don't dislike the generally-feminist-oriented sites; my issue is one of consistency and focus. There is so much dissention within online feminism that I would hesitate to create more by criticizing content on their sites. Arguably, this is a passive approach -- you're right on that.
I do think lefty politics and feminism can exist together, as Donna said -- but that the issue is that feminists with such politics often see themselves as lefty first and feminism a distant second, after all the other issues.
How do you see rightwing feminists as doing a better job? I'd be interested in some specific examples.
Dan said: "Octogalore, when I see men of color write sexist things in spaces that have racism as their primary focus, I call them out on it."
How is that relevant? My claim was that you were "insisting to a bunch of feminists what feminism should be." Nobody here has said racist or any other -ist things, so how is your analogy of relevance? You have not demonstrated why you have any right to call out feminists for suggesting that feminism be the lynchpin of the analysis on feminist sites -- which, to repeat myself, seems more obvious than arguable.
You appear to be presenting arguments for different propositions than the ones on the table. Back in my legal days we used to call this "assumes facts not in evidence." That usually happens when someone can't make a convincing argument based on the facts at hand, and has to make up new ones. That what's going on here, Dan?
Octogalore
Yeah, I know how we are not supposed to criticize and I usually do not but the left sites totally misrepresent feminism. Women are dying in the Middle East because of their BS and I am tired of it. I am also tired of how they are forcing trans women into what should be women only places. Total disrespect for women's right to create their own space.
Go here to read what the right women have done. http://www.state.gov/g/wi/
It will make you cry to see what Condi has done. Condi is a single women with no kids who says she is pro choice. She does not cover herself like the white women do when they visit the patriarchs. She has been a fabulous symbol of free women and has been organizing in the State Dept to help women free themself.
All those women in the Office of international Women's Issues - how they fought on with no feminist support. They and I cried the day the Iraqi constitution passed. We wanted more pressure from the US women on Bush for a secular constitution but there was no pressure from US women. All through this war US women acted as if it were none of our business and let Code Pink represent us feminists.
The right women in the state dept. have set up a network of Muslim Women and give them Courage Awards so their govt can't kill them or put them in jail and they fund the work these women do. They are training and arming women in Iraq and Afghanistan - putting them in all women's brigades to guard the shelters. Unfortunately, their govt are disarming the women as fast as we are training them. They have built abuse shelters. They have set up womens NGOs. They have set up women's radio stations for the Kurdish women. (I have links to some of these groups on my blog). They set up women's centers and women's economic development projects and they have built schools for the girls.
They have set up conduits through the US troops for US women to send sewing machines and such to women living in caves. They did they best they could. And the right women on the blogs constantly posted about the conditions of women. But there was no feminist organization to mobilize women. Because god forbid feminist women admit that force is sometimes necessary.
Donna Hughes used to have an article on her site "Defeating the women haters" Step by step showing how feminism is the antidote to Muslim terrorism. http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/
Donna Hughes and Phillis Chesler are feminists to read - also that women who wrote "Backlash" and also anything by Andrea Dworkin. Chesler's "Death of Feminism" deals with a lot of these questions but "Woman's Inhumanity to Woman" is the classic.
Biden has an IVAWA bill ready to replace the right wing women if the Dem's get in because many see the value in what they have done. The feminist movement in the states disgraced itself during this war by abandoning the opportunity to liberate women held in slavery just to follow the left boys in their partisan politics. What do we care for their crap? We should do what we can for women when it is there for us to do. We can fight the loss of other rights from the center and still work with anyone when it helps women.
And Donna, you tell the women who lived under the Taliban how war doesn't free women. That was the most arrogant statement of the year. No, our war did not bring Paradise and it will mean nothing if we pull out the way the left is demanding. The left boys who are cowards will be able to feel they are hero's for ending a war which is more important to them than saving women. What the war did do was stop torture of women. Women who were dying of burns at home because they were not allowed to be seen by male doctors. Too much horror for me to write about here.
Read Samantha Power's book and lose the lie that women were doing so well in Iraq before the US invaded. Now Power is wringing her phony hands in Darfur while a generation of women is being tortured to death. But women here have said that war will not liberate women so we will just watch what peace does for the women of Darfur. The Muslim theocracies are the belly of the beast for women. Only war will free women there.
Now we have the last chance to help those slaves with reconstruction, and still we are not acting to speak for women who need us to speak for them. We must influence Sen Clinton. But it looks like the fools will elect Obama in which case we are all lost anyway.
Here is the link to defeating the women haters - it is the feminist analysis related to the feminist foreign policy the US should have.
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/pubfund.htm
Octogalore: The relevance is that you asked "Would he have the ovaries to go over to a disability-related, poverty-related or race-related blog and make a similar statement?" about me and speculated I would not. I corrected your error.
There seems to remain a failure to communicate, as you seem to think I've "call out feminists for suggesting that feminism be the lynchpin of the analysis on feminist sites" and I've done nothing of the sort. I've tried to correct this misunderstanding, but it remains. You think I'm arguing facts not in evidence and it's looking more and more to me like you're building scarecrows to attack rather than address what I actually write. I see no point to continuing this dialog, so I'm done.
Dan, let me break it down for you.
I said: "dan is so staunch in insisting to a bunch of feminists what feminism should be. Would he have the ovaries to go over to a disability-related, poverty-related or race-related blog and make a similar statement?"
Then you said "when I see men of color write sexist things in spaces that have racism as their primary focus, I call them out on it."
My hypothetical was not "feminists writing racist things," which of course I'd have had no problem if you or anyone called out. My hypothetical was your instructing feminists as to what feminism should be, and whether you'd do the same on an anti-racist site. In other words, whether you'd tell POC on a POC-focused site whether their anti-racism was appropriately diverse. And I continue to believe you would not.
You switched the hypothetical to come up with the right answer. And now you're flouncing off. No scarecrows here, Dan.
GC -- I'll take a look at those links. Thanks.
Today on C-Span Book TV I am watching the author of Beyond Marriage, Nancy Polikoff speak about her book's topic. She is an original feminist thinker.
Now this woman is a 3rd wave feminist dealing with an inter-sectional issue in a feminist way. That is Polifoff is suggesting programs which speak for women of all races and classes. Polikoff presents a woman identified solution which reaches out from the traditional male construct to embrace a new way which strengthens Independence and choice for the individual.
These are solutions based on women's experienced needs not male fantasies about what women and children need.
Polikoff rejects the marriage model for the distribution of benefits. She said "marriage" itself should not confer benefits - benefits should belong to the individual to distribute at will.
The C_Span 2 , Book TV website may release a video of her talk sometime tomorrow.
Sounds like an interesting book.
In some ways, gay marriage or relationships are good models for an individual-based benefit system extending to everyone. The problem in hetero marriage/relationships is that the male/patriarchal model is one that many women also prefer.
So the issue becomes more complicated in the sense that defining the individual-benefits model as "woman-centered" leaves these women out of the picture.
I happen not to have much of a problem with that, personally -- I mean, either we're equal or we're not. If we are, then strengthening independence should be a good thing. I've talked in earlier posts about how I could not conceive of not having financial leverage in my own marriage.
But, the fact that not all women agree on this complicates the issue.
But what does all women agreeing have to do with feminist analysis? I do not need the agreement of other women to demand equal treatment for myself. Special privileges for married women might be agreed to by married women but that does not make it a feminist position. In Woman's Inhumanity to Woman,and GYNecology by Mary Daley, there is a lot about how women are conditioned to be male identified, so waiting for women to lose that conditioning is not an option for me. Especially since those who benefit from their male identification will never relinquish privilege.
A feminist position would be not to force women into marriage in order to get medical insurance or social security above the poverty level.
But how I thought this book and especially her speech was relevant to this discussion is because it is feminist analysis applied to what might be considered an inter-sectional issue. But the issue did not replace feminism by simply applying the male marriage model to gays. Instead the marriage model is replaced by a model which extends benefits to all women regardless of marital status. Feminist because the solution proposed meets the needs of all women to get the benefits of marriage rather than extends the sexist model of distributing benefits for sexual service (which is a male identified position).
to see a video of her speech you have to go to the C-Span2, Book TV, search page
http://www.booktv.org/search.aspx
then type in Polikoff in author's name line, click and her video will pop up
"But what does all women agreeing have to do with feminist analysis?"
Nothing. It just makes implementation more difficult. If women were more aligned, eg like with win-win issues like equal pay, it would be easier strategically (not that equal pay has been an easy fight). That's why someone like Linda Hirshman is so controversial.
"Feminist because the solution proposed meets the needs of all women to get the benefits of marriage rather than extends the sexist model of distributing benefits for sexual service (which is a male identified position)."
I agree. Good example.
First of all, who is Linda Hirshman? I am always looking for feminists who propose solutions not based on the male models. Elinor Burkett is another. She wrote "Baby Boom", which I think is a feminist classic, but most people do not recognize what a great feminist she is because her ideas are outside the male models. When women write like this, they are just ignored. Burkett tried to move other US women to help Muslim women during the war but only republican women responded. So she talked to them. She would appear put on a burka in the middle of her book readings so they could see how she disappeared. Then she would urge them to get in touch with the state dept Office of international Women's Issues. I saw her touring with her book "So Many Enemies So Little time".
As for getting women to agree, that is for "Woman's Inhumanity..." - because even after women understand their own interest in a matter, there are all those mother issues. It is about all those mother issues crowding into every action with other women.
I cannot understand women who will vote for Obama over Hillary. I just think, how much kool-aid do I have to drink in my life to live in this world with women haters and sell-outs? How can they continually choose some eye candy over their own self -interest?
I feel I have to vote for him if he wins (and he will because the boys still control the world and he is run by the very big boys).Why should I? Because I would expect blacks to vote for the Hill if she wins. Yet, POC should vote for Hillary because of all she has done for civil rights in the past. Why should I vote for Obama? What has he done for women?
How can someone as hate filled and misogynists Keith Oberman stay on the air?
Just read about Hirshman - Wow only in a totally 1984 run society would speaking the truth be considered controversial.
"...Goldberg criticized Hirshman for comments she made in a segment produced by Lesley Stahl on 60 Minutes in October of 2004. Hirshman's comments involved young, well-educated women who chose to give up high-paying, high-powered, and prestigious jobs in order to stay home and take care of their children. In the segment, Hirshman argued that this kind of decision would only lead to a lesser life for these women- "These women are choosing lives in which they do not use their capacity for very complicated work, they're choosing lives in which they do not use their capacity to deal with very powerful other adults in the world, which takes a lot of skill. I think there are better lives and worse lives."
Goldberg criticizes her for these remarks, arguing that Hirshman is a perfect example of a condescending old-fashioned radical feminist.
Hirshman was also criticized by economists such as Heather Boushey for having an insufficient empirical basis for her contention that women were dropping out of the U.S. labor market, [2] a charge which Hirshman says does not change her conclusions.[3]"
Yeah, unfortunately it's really hard to have your cake and eat it too, and Hirshman gets pilloried for pointing out why this doesn't work in real life.
"I cannot understand women who will vote for Obama over Hillary."
I hear you. Some of these women are my friends and relatives, but I've yet to hear a convincing issues-based analysis of this. My mom feels she needs to go with the more "electable" Dem to preserve the right Supreme Court decisions etc. Well, deciding women aren't electable is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. As you can imagine, she and I don't discuss politics much anymore.
Dan, let me break it down for you. My hypothetical was your instructing feminists as to what feminism should be, and whether you'd do the same on an anti-racist site. In other words, whether you'd tell POC on a POC-focused site whether their anti-racism was appropriately diverse. And I continue to believe you would not.
Yay! One person in the world gets it. No, three. You, me and Rebecca Walker. No, five, greenconsciousness and Violet Socks too! It's like talking to kindergartners when you try to get women to stand up for themselves.
See, I strongly disagree that focusing on racism or trans issues is "not feminism," because they intersect, and for many people it's -not- clear where one ends and one begins, and often the end product is more than the sum of its parts, and you can't understand it without looking at -all- the parts.
That said, there is something to the idea of internalizing the "caretaker" role and how it plays into feminism, and indeed many kinds of leftie activism, I've noticed, the GUILT, darling.
The prototype I always think of is this one dear woman I knew from Dyke Drama Collective. Never met a task force or volunteer effort she didn't...well, "like," I don't know, but sign up for. Tireless, mostly uncomplaining, one cause after another after another, working in a rather thankless and underpaid job herself (at the time--I think/hope she's moved on, we've lost touch).
And...I gotta say this: no one knows what causes Chronic Fatigue Syndrome? but I can't imagine that this sort of life -helps-, you know? I don't know if this is how it worked, but IF the body used such things to say, "hey, slow down, you're killing us," it'd be a pretty clear message. And yet...
yeah, overstepping, there. Oh, and she rarely got angry, visibly angry, and she was in at least two very abusive relationships in the time I knew her.
Sometimes I think as a counselor, I'd like to try to make a specialty of helping the professional "helpers," you know, because I do think that there's a lot of burnout, and some of it goes with the territory, but some of it may well have to do with this internalized whatever-it-is.
...in fact, if anything, sometimes I see the "selfish" thing get used in the other direction,wrt intersections: i.e. someone who's very clear from personal experience -exactly- how racism or transphobia or homophobia affects her as a woman who's -also- ___, tries to bring up such issues in a "mainstream" setting and is told, in so many words, that she's "selfish" for bringing up all these irrelevant other issues, even -gasp- -blaming- her Sisters in some cases, when she should be devoted to the One True Cause; because aren't we all experiencing this exactly the same? And aren't "we" the standard-bearers? How dare you suggest otherwise.
AS per Phyllis Chesler: hoo boy, not anymore: she's gone full-on neocon.
Belle, here's the thing. I think it's pretty clear where immigration or disability issues or racism is being discussed as to how women affected by these things are being specifically affected, and when the general policies are discussed.
The problem is that if feminism subsumes the latter (which I argue it shouldn't) as well as the former (which I believe it should) it then becomes about everything and risks the burnout you mention or the dilution I fear.
Realistically, ALL leftist movements intersect, but we all know that none of them adopt feminism to the degree that feminists adopt the others. There's a reason for that.
If this weren't the case, I'd agree with you. Because it is, I feel like there should be one place that centers women.
That doesn't mean that feminists shouldn't care about the broad policy issues. I do low-income career and school counseling for poor boys as well as girls, for example. And it's great for feminists to be involved in movements like anti-war or immigration etc.
But when you're discussing "feminism," eg on a feminist blog (as opposed to a blog by a feminist) or in feminist literature (ditto), it needs to center women, IMO.
belldame 222
You belong to an org that calls women "dykes" which is sex role stereotyping. You call Phyllis Chesler a neocon and dismiss this radical feminist who has published the deepest feminism writing I have ever read with that word.
Here is some of her writing -- other women can judge what is feminist and what is male left crap.
Especially on this day when Texas went into US polygamy compounds and rescued children prostituted as surely as they are in any Muslim country. Except here the law is not on the side of the abusers - well at least not right now.
Chesler's Chronicle:
"According to Minnesota based psychoanalyst and Arabist, Dr. Nancy Kobrin, it is a culture in which shame and honor play decisive roles and in which the debasement of women is paramount. In an utterly fascinating and as-yet unpublished book, which I will be introducing, the Sheik’s New Clothes: the Psychoanalytic Roots of Islamic Suicide Terrorism, Kobrin, and her Israeli co-author, counter-terrorism expert Yoram Schweitzer, describe barbarous family and clan dynamics in which children, both boys and girls, are routinely orally and anally raped by male relatives; infant males are sometimes sadistically over-stimulated by being masturbated; boys between the ages of 7-12 are publicly and traumatically circumcised; many girls are clitoridectomized; and women are seen as the source of all shame and dishonor and treated accordingly: very, very badly.
According to Dr. Kobrin, “The little girl lives her life under a communal death threat—the honor killing.” Both male and female infants and children are brought up by mothers (who are debased and traumatized women). As such, all children are forever psychologically “contaminated” by the humiliated yet all-powerful mother. Arab and Muslim boys must disassociate themselves from her in spectacularly savage ways. But, on a deep unconscious level, they may also wish to remain merged with the source of contamination—a conflict that suicide bombers both act out and resolve when they manfully kill but also merge their blood eternally with that of their presumably most hated enemies, the Israeli Jews. In Kobrin’s view, the Israeli Jews may actually function as substitutes or scapegoats for an even more primal, hated/loved enemy: Woman.
Widespread child sexual abuse leads to paranoid, highly traumatized, and revenge-seeking adults. Based on my own experience in Afghanistan (a non-Arab, Muslim culture), a polygamous, patriarchal culture also leads to an infernal, fraternal competition for paternal favor and inheritance.
It is brother against brother, full brothers against half-brothers, full and half brothers against first cousins—and thus, can entire families and clans remain locked in revenge-fueled mortal combat for generations."
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