Note: the discussion below may seem familiar. In fact, it is based on the accumulation of over a dozen such instances that have taken place over the last three years, the majority of which happened offline. The facts and circumstances mentioned below do not relate to any one instance or individual.
I was greatly inspired by the fabulous discussions at Shakespeares Sister and Apostate.
Typically it goes like this.
Well, let’s back up first and start with a definition.
A feminist, according to Dictionary.com, is a person whose beliefs are in accordance with “the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men” (hereinafter: “the definition.”)
Now let’s start with Jane.
Jane thinks women and men are equal and should have equal rights and opportunities.
According to the definition, Jane is a feminist.
Jane, however, has different interests from various vocal feminists. Maybe she dresses in ways of which radical feminists don’t approve. Maybe her job is viewed as too patriarchal. Maybe her sexual preferences are not blessed by friends or acquaintances IRL or online. Maybe she has different priorities based on social class, race or upbringing than those she sees being the focus of various big feminist blogs and/or books. Maybe women (or men) Jane knows have attempted to revoke her feminist card for such matters.
But wait, you say. There is no feminist card. There is no entity with the power to revoke ones feminism. Either one has it or one doesn’t. And there’s only one person who gets to decide that.
Well, you’d think, right?
But, because of one or more of these differences, Jane decides to go public as no longer a feminist. She doesn’t feel comfortable with the term anymore. She may (is likely to, even) put it in much more dramatic terms.
And, a cadre of women, some feminists and some no-longer, applaud this choice.
Jane still calls herself a Democrat (usually), despite diverging dramatically from many in the party. She still calls herself a runner, although her running frequency and style differs from many others who call themselves runners. She still calls herself an anti-racist, although her views of anti-racism are different from those of, say, Bill Cosby or various members of the Supreme Court who also refer to themselves as anti-racists. She still calls herself a teacher, although she feels a growing disconnect with various others in her field. She would consider it ridiculous to divest herself of any of these appellations.
Jane is aware that if she did change her status regarding political party, race, or other examples above, she might come in for some critique from friends, and she knows it would likely be well-justified.
However, Jane (and her supporters) are at the ready if/when her choice not to be a feminist is critiqued. They are, in fact, offended.
Typically, the critique is muted, of course. The is not just any movement, it’s feminism. The F word. Women aren’t supposed to be demanding, pushy. Words like “aggressive” or “shrill” get a lot of usage in place of “assertive” or “forthright” when the only difference is estrogen. So it’s not cool to be too demanding when one of your own says she can’t represent something, even if it cuts you to the quick because that something has to do with whether you’re a person or not.
But you feel like you need to say something. Often, nobody else will.
Only – it becomes very clear, very quickly, that you’ve stepped over the line, and you’ll get slapped down. No matter how irrational it is for someone to reject her own equality, because that’s exactly what “I’m not a feminist” is, you’re not supposed to say it. As a woman, you need to understand that the former feminist has been somehow alienated by others within the movement. And that unlike any other group – like, the kinds that are run by GUYS, the important ones – it’s understandable to bail out of the principle and not just out of association with the offending members.
We’re used to being expendable, and we’re not supposed to “center” our hurt at this, especially when someone’s complaining that our desire to be equal is the root of her sadness. We’re women, and the most vulnerable is always right.
You don’t expect the slap-down from women, though. When you say “we are equal, why is that controversial, why are you confusing some bad apples with a principle?” You expect guys to say pipe down and shut up, maybe. But other women?
Well, these women are sticking up for one of their own who’s been hurt. That’s what women do. So: stuff it. File it away. It’s not HELPING.
Because standing up for women being equal is selfish. There’s no possibility that the intent was to provide something maybe more helpful, yes helpful, than the bandaid of an online hug and a rubber stamp. Online hugs are great, don’t get me wrong, but they’re not great long term remedies. The suggestion that one could gather succor from not letting slip away, from accepting and insisting upon on ones own terms, a belief system that at least at one point held significant meaning, seems to me to be a sincere expression of help.
Maybe not. The person facing the truly difficult pain of feeling she has to be “x” to be a feminist – that’s important. But is affirming the chosen way to end this pain – when it may not solve the underlying issue – is that the solution?
Telling people what they want to hear – is that the kind of help that counts?
What about women? Don’t we count?
When I think about why it's important to identify as someone who believes in the definition, I think about the things that have happened in my life because others didn't.
And I know my examples are very minimal in the scheme of things.
The times I had to get coffee for people with penises and fewer qualifications.
The time I got fired because the man who sexually harassed me got sick of waiting to see if I’d say anything.
The time I sat by the beach and thought about suicide because despite my “privilege,” I had no idea what I would do next. I couldn't figure out a way to enter "privilege" into the ATM as my password and get the $120K that I owed. And nobody had any answers except get married.
The women I counsel who come from families who support only their brothers as the first in the family to attend college, maybe.
The fact that for every color, orientation and class, women in that group face higher hurdles than their brothers? And no, I’m not a woman of color nor lower income, but I’m related to some who are or have been both.
What about: I hurt when I hear someone I respect opting out of the principle that says: these people deserve better.
Because that’s all it is. That’s all feminism is. There are tens, hundreds of different varieties. But feminism is very simple. No matter how dominant-seeming, no matter how vocal, no group can define for any individual woman what comes along with believing she is equal.
But wait, you say. Who are you to question women’s choices? You have the choice to be a feminist. Jane has the choice not to be. It’s about autonomy, stupid. She’s got the right to make choices about her life and have them be respected.
Right. And that’s because of feminism.
Monday, April 14, 2008
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41 comments:
Feminism is an idea.
“the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men”
WOC's experiences of it have been less than ideal but no one disclaims anti-racism because it's (much more) sexist and homophobic. It comes down to a relative lack of respect for women.
I agree -- mainstream feminism as evidenced by the big blogs and followers is often quite dismissive of WOC. Nothing in my post is meant to deny that.
Feminism doesn't equal BigFeministBlog.com, though, or IBlame etc etc. No matter how dominant those things seem.
It's totally righteous to be offended at how the mainstream evokes feminism, just like it is to be offended at how the mainstream evokes anything.
But it's unique to feminism, I think, that exit is so easy and tempting.
And you're right in your last sentence, I also think, as to why this is.
Love this. Love you.
Love from me too and...yes, this is a frustrating thing. I wish people would stay and try to make the movement change and become better rather than leaving in disgust, because if everyone who sees the problems leaves nothing ever will change. And because "I'm not a feminist" sounds like "I don't really believe in my own personhood" to me too when it's coming from a woman.
Thanks so much for the support, Apostate and CS.
you are one of the best and I love you
Love from me too!
What makes me different than those who reject feminism? Younger women experience less sexism. It's frustrating when they reject it without further investigation and reading. The election brought out this awareness but it's always after-the-fact and Hillary could lose.
Thanks, GC and Donna!
Love from me too!
Donna - interesting point. Do you mean because of changes (thank you, second wave feminists) or because of ageism (the gender-specific variety)?
Nice piece, Octo. One quibble/question: In your opinion, can you be a pro-life feminist? For me, you can't. Without agency over our childbearing potential there is no feminism. So while I hate to exclude anyone, I do.
But it's unique to feminism, I think, that exit is so easy and tempting.
It often feels safe and right to reject feminism, while claiming feminism feels scary and alienating. The status quo is always a comfort.
SMMO -- good to see you and I hope life has been treating you well.
Interesting point. I guess I should qualify my statement that "there's only one person who can decide if h/she is a feminist" to "assuming h/she fits the definition (per the post) there's only one person who can decide if h/she is a feminist."
A pro-lifer wouldn't fit the definition because his/her beliefs would not be in accordance with the doctrine advocating equal rights for women. Since men do have the right to decide about things happening within their bodies.
Totally better definition--We have "Feminists" for Life here in WI and they do not do a damn thing for women -- never have -- just oppose abortion and go on and on about the poor baaaabies --
I have a much more controversial stance on reproduction, as you know Octo concerning rights of children to be safe and wanted which I think is an equal rights feminist position. I think men should have the right to require abortions. I think no woman should have a child the father does not want (or with an abusive male).
At the least, if a woman reproduces over the filed objections of a male, he should be off the hook for support.
I had a lot of clients who got pregnant when they knew the man did not want them OR much less a baby. Then, they wanted child support of course but worse, turned the child against the father. All the kid's life it heard how the father did not want them and they sabotaged every attempt at visitation.
I would have never believed this before I practiced law. My group, Milwaukee WAR, was in Chesler's book "Mothers On Trial" for the work we did to prevent abusive males from getting placement much less custody. But in family law practice, I regularly ran in to really damaged women who crippled their kids emotionally and tried to use me and the court system to help them do it.
Then I thought --no one has the right to deform children like this
Oh well - there I go again.But feminism has to evolve beyond second wave triage analysis.
Great post... I quoted you. :)
Trackback (never learned to do it right):
Odds and Sods: the bitter edition
What if you're Catholic, pro-life but a feminist in every other way?
Younger women benefit from the first and second waves but the NY Mag article about the 4th wave says many women think they're the exception and deny sexism until insult incretion/this election.
GC -- Definitely some controversial stances!
I have a problem with men being able to require abortions. That is another slippery slope. Both partners take responsibility for birth control, and if it fails, it's on both of them. Because it's the woman's body that is affected, and because abortion is not risk-free, a man (or another woman as the case may be) should not be able to dictate abortion, IMO.
I do agree with you regarding child support, if filed objections ahead of time and reasonable precautions can be demonstrated. The problem there is the demonstration of proof. If, for example, both parties either are open to having a child or do not discuss whether they are not, she gets pregnant, and then he determines retroactively that he does not want the responsibility, it's too late and he needs to take that responsibility. So I'm not sure how your suggestion would actually be implemented in a fair way.
Donna asked "What if you're Catholic, pro-life but a feminist in every other way?"
Then, I'd say you're Catholic, pro-life and a feminist in EVERY OTHER WAY. But IMO it would need to be qualified exactly that way. While I sometimes wish I had religious beliefs, specifically wrt an afterlife, mainly so that I could instill in my daughter less fear of dying than I have (a whole other topic), I don't look at religion as an excuse for sexism.
well you know what the courts IE society says---
better he pays than WE pay.
I think men should be able to require abortion because I have made a personal decision not to bring life into the world based on my own spirituality.
I would be outraged if someone forced me to do it or brought my DNA into the world against my will. I do not feel I should have to screw up my reproductive system to insure that does not happen because i might change my mind some day.
I think women who are opposed to abortion should not have sex with men who are opposed to reproducing and the first right is to the child to be wanted.
The state is not telling her anything --the FATHER -- the other half of that fetus is saying NO -- I think you believe in equal rights or you don't. I do.
What is IMO?
Hey Donna
2 strikes
Pro life AND Catholic?
I say we are already far out of feminist territory.
That male worshiping POC corporate, pedophilic, woman hating church is NO place for a woman or child much less a feminist. I was raised Catholic - they are totally corrupt -- only the Muslims beat the Catholics in institutionalized misogyny.
Both partners take responsibility for birth control
Always with the jokes Octo. Good to see you too!
I think if you're personally pro-life but support abortion rights for others you can be a feminist. Otherwise, no.
How about we make a deal with men? Women and only women get to administer abortion rights but men can't be held responsible for support. Anyone think we'd have a problem keeping abortions legal?
Another one of my great, slightly fascist, ideas that will never be implemented. Oh well.
I'm not sure there's such a thing as personally pro-life. If you're pro life, that suggests to me you a belief system that doesn't make exceptions (except maybe the rape/incest ones, although some of them don't even make those).
Although, if there exist women who do fit that description, they are feminists without qualification IMO (= "in my opinion"). I'd probably refer to them as people who didn't personally feel comfortable with abortion for themselves, rather than pro-life though.
SMMO -- there was an implied [should] before take -- it was meant in the legal sense, like both partners HAVE responsibility, more than to represent the current state of affairs re who actually implements it. But hats off to your attention to detail. You'll hate me for this, but maybe you shoulda been a lawya!
I like the slightly fascist idea, and agree about the likelihood of implementation.
I have a few myself -- like getting the oft-discussed male birth control pill on the market. Let him deal with bloating and whatever else, not to mention the cost.
And I believe in consistency -- where I've been on the pill, my SO at the time has paid half the freight, and I've paid half the cost of dinners/movies/etc -- roughly. OK, I lie, this was not the case in my 20s. But, live and learn. My relationships in my 30s (married at 34) were healthier.
Hmmm....great analogies, but I do hear from people who won't identify as a Democrat (though they vote for them, and agree with the party platform) or as runners (though they run twice a week...maybe less, maybe more).
I wonder how much the problem is related to imagery and who controls that imagery. Perception may not be everything, but it has a profound effect on people's behavior.
I agree with you on the definition of feminism. But feminism faces a higher degree of whittling-away-from within than other movements (or maybe that's just my perception. sometimes it appears to me that COINTELPRO couldn't have come with better methods for the movement to implode.)
This isn't new; Mother Jones was asked why she wasn't out working for suffrage; she saw it as a diversionary tactic to keep working class women from being focused on meat-and-potato economic issues. For their part, the feminists of her day did not reach out to her, other female labor leaders or working women in general. Some things haven't changed. (not that this is true of all economically privileged feminists, you for instance, Octo, or folks like Ellen Bravo---but it is true of too damn many of them.)
Here's the thing---the women who are vocally divesting themselves from feminism (again, not speaking of any individual now---just as you, I'm thinking mostly of women I know offline)---feel betrayed. They expect more out of feminism, and out of feminists. They are/were emotionally invested in feminism to a greater degree than say, the Democratic Party....
...and part of that is perception, too. Feminism doesn't have the multiplicity of movements and people that exist in real-live bona-fide feminism as the "image". And that's a damn shame, particularly for women who are more geographically isolated (like myself). I also think its a damn shame that when feminist movement is occurring within other movements (as it tends to do for those of us geographically isolated---that 'critical mass' thing), it isn't credited as 'feminism' or 'feminist movement'---it's just part-and-parcel of whatever the parent organization or movement is (for example, the Coalition of Labor Union Women isn't really considered "feminist"; it's just part of the "labor movement"---gahh!!!). The other movements mentioned in this thread, like Democrats and Catholics, do have a more diverse image, even to folks in the sticks.
I'll think on this some more and come back....just wanted to give you some response, however off the cuff.
Also, greenconsciousness---FUCK men (or anyone else) forcing abortions on women, whether under the guise of State power or anything else. Only the woman, the pregnant woman, gets to choose whether she gives birth or terminates her pregnancy, period. He always has the option of vasectomy. The right to keep my child is something I would kill for.
GC, Catholic women can be feminists, Catholic pro-lifers if they're feminist in every other way. I only hate the ones who push their pro-life opinions on everyone else.
La Lubu, it’s great to see you here, and thanks for your thoughts which are characteristically thought-provoking and eloquent.
I know some people bail out of being a Democrat, etc., but it’s really not to the same extent that feminism is viewed as a loose affiliation.
I agree with your point about imagery and its effect on behavior.
I also agree with your point about Mother Jones – my concern is not that women should work on issues they don’t feel strongly about.
I’m a bit concerned with your reference to certain women as economically privileged, where you are not sure how much is privilege vs hard work. In my case, I don’t pretend privilege isn’t a factor. However, there are women out there whom you would not refer to as economically privileged who had more starting advantages than I had. And there are women with far fewer starting advantages who are now well off economically. You appear to be referencing current position rather than starting position, and privilege is about starting point. As it happens, my parents’ educational level was a significant advantage, although not an economic one. My parents never owned real estate when I was growing up, and never seemed to have a car less than 10 years old. Public school, summer jobs since 13, minimal wardrobe, no funds for college except the full-loans method, worked 20 hours a week through college. That’s much more economic privilege than some, don’t get me wrong, but I’m not sure that’s what you are referring to.
And there are a number of women, some who post here, who have had much more dramatic alterations in economic status, who now are middle class and will ultimately be higher, but started out in a much different scenario.
Certainly, some women face obstacles so that even with hard work they cannot ever attain a comfortable economic status. I get it. Anyone not in this category does have some privilege. But erasing the hard work component from the equation, lumping in women who have worked hard with the silver spoon contingent with not even a nod to the distinction, is not something I want to encourage here. There are enough places in the blogosphere to go for breastbeating. I don’t believe in complacency, and also don’t believe in reflexive shame either.
I don’t mean to rant; I know your context was actually a very complimentary one about inclusivity and I greatly appreciate that.
I understand the feelings of betrayal the ex-feminists feel, but I believe the source is other feminists, not the concept in itself, and that dropping the concept is a simplistic non-remedy to a more complex problem.
Your point about emotional investment (in contrast to political party) and perception vis a vis where feminism takes place unnoted within other movements such as union organizing are good ones. Re emotional investment, that is a definite factor in an emotional reaction, such as “Attention all! I am no longer a feminist!”
Ultimately, however, despite the momentarily satisfying response that comes from that outburst, ranging from “please don’t go!” to “I totally understand, fuck feminism, you go girl!” it’s no real solution to the underlying problem.
You'll hate me for this, but maybe you shoulda been a lawya!
I thought about it but concluded that I'm far too lazy.
I'd probably refer to them as people who didn't personally feel comfortable with abortion for themselves, rather than pro-life though.
That is a much better way of saying it.
Octo---thanks!
Re: the privilege. Well, I've noticed in my years that the folks most likely to be interested in reaching a hand out to lift others are the very people who've put some time into struggle themselves. Which isn't to deny that most everyone hasn't been the beneficiary of some privilege or another---just sayin'....that there are those who remember where they come from and those who invest a lot of energy trying to forget and disavow where they come from.
I'm not looking at it from a strictly hierarchical class perspective; that's something I really can't claim much access to myself. But that attitude exists even within class strata, and I've seen a helluva lotta that. I'm thinking about the time I heard two (union) brothers make a scathing indictment of "organized hands" (meaning guys who used to work nonunion, but then became union members). They went on-and-on about how organized guys tend to be less skilled (generally true, because the nonunion doesn't have an accredited apprenticeship program, and most nonunion shops have crew leaders who know what they're doing, and everyone else is just told how to perform the simplest of tasks---they aren't trained in their craft and therefore aren't paid a skilled wage), and how those guys shouldn't be making journeyman scale,and how come it's so easy for those guys to slide into membership, yadda yadda.
And I while I never worked with the two angry guys carrying on, I had worked with both of their fathers. Their white ticket fathers. ("White ticket" as opposed to yellow ticket---meant that they were nonunion "book four" guys. In the old days, a white ticket had to work for a year in the local before becoming a member.)
So, in my eyes, those fellas were the beneficiaries of privilege, even though they were unaware of it. Their fathers having been put through the same wringer they were eager to put the newly-organized guys through, are what paved the way for their membership. They didn't just have historical amnesia about the labor movement, they had historical amnesia in their own family background!!
Like you, I'm also not interested in displays of sackcloth-and-ashes. That's easy. What I want to see are changes in behavior.
Here's some patterns I see that stymie effective feminist movement:
*the over-reliance on college campuses as sites of organizing and events. Don't get me wrong; I'm not so dense I can't see why that isn't attractive---lots of intelligent young women, very few of them with children or other family obligations, willing to work for relatively little pay or even for free---but campuses are insular communities. Especially campuses that have very little to do with the towns they happen to be situated in.
*too much recent emphasis on courthouse remedies, and not enough on legislation. Again, the courts should be a site of resistance and victory too, but so damn many of us don't have access to that in the first place. Re-read my post on parachutes and their holes---I know in my bones I could have won a sex discrimination suit, but (a)I didn't have the money, (b)lawyers are reluctant to take a case for a union woman, because those get real ugly---it inevitably comes out that the union reps didn't do their job properly (that's the first thing the opposition brings up---"we didn't know there was a problem, because the B.A. didn't say anything!"), and (c)the most important factor for me was that I didn't have the time to waste. I needed insurance coverage right then, and of course, the perennial (d)a lawsuit is career suicide---unless your escape hatch is already planned, you might as well say hello to the minimum wage again (no thanks. the worst jobs I've ever had have always beat the hell out of low-wage, no benefit jobs I've had in the past).
*using the same organizing techniques from grandma's day. that's not just a failure of feminist movement, but also the labor movement. Meetings, meetings, and more meetings. In the evening. Cutting into family time or night school time. (trust me, it frustrates me to no end to hear the central trades and labor council bitch, piss and moan about the lack of participation while continuing to hold meetings at 6:30PM and no babysitting available! They still seem to have the de facto assumption that "the wife is home taking care of all that". News flash---half the membership are single parents, and of those, almost all the women are custodial single parents. Even the married parents---the younger members do not have the Ozzie and Harriet thing going on. I've been blowing off meetings of that body on the regular because of a lack of evening childcare---and no matter how many times I try to explain to the grandfatherly types that babysitters are an endangered species, that they would be better served having meetings immediately after work while kids are still in afterschool care (or providing an on-site babysitter), and relying on a private website or an mail listserv to get info out to members who miss a meeting for whatever reason.....they just.don't.get.it.
I think both the feminist and labor movements have the same natural constituencies, and share many of the same strengths and weaknesses. One feminist organization that has a fairly broad base that gets it right is 9 to 5. I can't say enough about how great that groups is---and the reason? Not being hidebound to one working strategy. Seeing organizing opportunities in underserved populations, rather than disinterest.
That's frustrating to me; the assumption of disinterest. I'm damn interested in feminism. I'd be up for some more marching, too. More milling around the Statehouse and confronting politicians; making them look me in the eye! But the fact is, at this stage in my life, I can only be a footsoldier. Point-woman, sure, but not the general. And that's a message that too much of the feminist movement (along with the labor movement) has somehow let go along the way---where's the place for footsoldiers? (I chalk that up to more individualism, as well as emphasis on passing-as-a-strategy...which I know I'll have to come back and explain later!)
Acck, gotta cook dinner. I'll try to drop back in tomorrow, but if I don't, you'll have to wait till Saturday. Tomorrow night is union meeting night for my Local (no babysitting problems for the third Friday---grandpa drives over a couple hundred miles for that. If it was during the week, I'd be screwed).
La Lubu: I agree, often people who’ve struggled to move up economically can identify more easily with others going through that process and are either more sympathetic or more distanced as the case may be.
I still feel that the struggle needs to be acknowledged. There is a happy medium between identifying all accomplishments as privilege-based and refusing to acknowledging that privilege did factor in. I work – not as much as I should, but very part-time – with lower income kids to help them gain admission to my undergrad. For those who do, and who are able to benefit from that, I don’t want someone looking at them five years down the road and writing off their efforts.
And that also goes for the less heartwarming version of some hardworking debt-ridden kid from lower-middle or middle class making good in terms of money OR OTHER accomplishments through effort and strategy. Men have been able to be heroes without a rags to riches tale, and I don’t want to take that away from women because of our more easily tweaked guilt strings.
That does not mean that one becomes complacent – it’s critical to be connected to the realities and to continue to act and not just preach. But women are complex creatures and I don’t think that it’s incompatible to feel pride and also feel a need to incorporate activism at all levels.
That’s an interesting point about the attitude within class strata, in the union context. It demonstrates itself in women’s actions and has implications for feminism as well, I think. Often someone points to a Carly Fiorina or someone else who’s played boys games to succeed to tell a “meet the new boss, same as the old boss” story. And there is some truth to that. Women notice younger women having it somewhat easier along the lines of what you say about “it’s so easy for those guys to slide into membership” and often don’t reach out or mentor as they should. While things are somewhat easier, there is a long way to go.
And some older women, eg in corporate America, do have historical amnesia, in that their mentors and they were put through the wringers that they now take advantage of putting others through.
That said, I think with more women and less compromise involved in getting to positions of responsibility, the “new boss” thing will actually happen. I see it starting to happen.
You’re right about access holding back availability of feminist accomplishments, though. The siting on college campuses and the need to seek legal remedies and potential hazards, employment-wise, of doing so – these are problematic and that’s why both internal subversion and external activism are critical. I’m sorry about what happened with the sexual harassment you encountered. I will go check out the backstory on that.
I am interested to hear your thoughts as to the place for footsoldiers as I’m not quite sure of where you’re going there. Hope you enjoy dinner!
I think this is such a complicated issue, which pits identity politics against post-modernism. One part of the struggle is in claiming a group (in this case 'feminists') in order to form a 'movement', yet how do you do that when that group is not homogenous... when that group has its own hierarchy that places a lower value on other identities (poc, queer, poor, etc)? And, to complicate it further, when the society that we're living in, many times, forces us to make choices that are in conflict with our politics and ideologies? It's easy to shirk the responsibility of priviledge and say 'I do what I can, when I can', but we're not perfect people nor should we (individually) hold the responsibility of all of the worlds ills, and we need to think about issues of self-care too.
Sorry... these all all things that have been on my mind lately, and this wonderful conversation brought them to the fore. :)
FR
What concrete example do you have that there is some hierarchy in feminism? There is self interest, yes. There is a rejection of victimhood, yes. There is a refusal to be abused and a rejection of submission to those who would exploit our labor. There is a refusal to accept abuse even from women of color toward white women or from poor women to privileged women. If we cannot work together without verbal abuse, people walk away and that is not a hierarchy of issues; it is just self respect. But we are ALL women and that means ALL issues are worked on IF women see them as beneficial to all women.
There are two concrete examples that actual
(as opposed to theoretical/academic) feminists are working on that I can use to explain what mean. I will use poverty/poor which you said what we place a lower value on:
"when that group has its own hierarchy that places a lower value on other identities (poc, queer, poor..."
And if you respond, please use similar actual issues rather than theoretical accusations divorced from reality. I like what La Lubu does though I do not agree with her position on reproduction. I do agree fiercely with her employment/organizing issues. She is very specific.
My examples, are the Equal Pay Act and an article in Ms. Both are class/poverty issues. The Equal Pay Act was gutted by the Supreme Court and congress did not fix the problem for a long time. Feminists campaigned, got the fix passed in the house and are mobilizing women right now to write their senators to pass it in the senate next week. How does this fit into your idea that poverty/working class issues or women are inferior in the feminist hierarchy? The case was brought by a woman who worked for 20 years in a tire factory. Then she found out the men who did the same job received more pay.
Then, we have the last issue of Ms. Ms. often confuses the male left agenda with feminism now that Ellie Smeal and Karen Spillar have bought the magazine and the Feminist Majority Organization. So there is an article written by a defense atty that argues that poor women should not lose their children because they are poor. Sounds good. It is the left craft of making offenders into victims disguised as feminism. Defense atty constructs the story of a woman who had children she could not support with a man who left her. If man had stayed all would be OK. Bad man. At which points the woman moves the children around constantly and they do not receive an education from state to state. Despite the availability of medical care, the woman does not get heart medicine or cardiac care for the one child's illness. She does receive other benefits and calls a social worker for landlord problems. When SW arrives the utility bill has not been paid - no electricity - food spoiling in refrigerator. Social worker removes kids. Bad SW. Now the defense atty says, mom only gets supervised visits. Anyone who is a dull normal knows that means mom is an addict or in some way has abused an exploited these kids. The defense atty tells us this woman's children were removed because she was poor. I do not accept this as a feminist position. I don't even believe the facts as presented by the defense attorney. And if Ms were not so left but more feminist, it would have had the child's guardian ad litem tell the story from the child's rights perspective. I don't accept this as a feminist position because it accepts no responsibility from the woman and simply says she is a victim. The answer is to give her more benefits for reproducing instead of going to school or learning a trade or finishing high school or anything that would show she is doing anything but living irresponsibly.
I believe the feminist will work for more job training equal apprenticeships -- self sufficiency programs totally unrelated to whether a woman has children but based only on her income - her ability to pay. This is equal rights feminism. It is not that poverty is not a burning issue, it is that victim worship is not acceptable. Feminism does not excuse the state but it does not accept the traditional roles assigned to women either.
So these are two class issues. There are feminist reasons for accepting one which is for equal rights and rejecting the other which rewards women for playing the traditional role of victim, helpless to make choices which are not self defeating.
This in no ways means feminist put poor women down,
we ARE poor women. Feminism lifts women up, changes society to remove roadblocks to upward mobility and expects women to move up and be ethical, responsible and self sufficient where they can just like the expectations we have of males.
FR – welcome.
No group is homogenous. Whether it’s based on income, orientation, POC, etc. For one thing, all those groups have both women and men. But somehow, because we are used to adapting to male norms, we don’t have the same issues vis a vis those groups.
Being a feminist isn’t about lockstep and doesn’t dictate one agenda. I would distinguish the mainstream movement from the principle. I have no issues with someone who feels incorrectly valued by what she sees in various branches of the movement and decides to focus on issues that are more meaningful. But that’s a very different thing from saying “I’m not a feminist.”
As I said earlier in this thread – I don’t encourage vague statements about “shirk[ing] the responsibility of privilege” here. If you have a specific statement about feminism’s flaws there, go at it. Generally chastising feminists for riding the privilege train is not something I think is productive.
I don’t deny that it’s critical to call out privilege within the movement and within oneself, but the former needs to be identified productively rather than a vague breastbeat, and the latter is a personal issue that becomes an exercise in competitive hairshirting when tossed around to people one really doesn’t know in bloglandia.
Worse, the vague use of the term becomes an excuse to substitute self-flagellation for actual productive work. It’s all of our responsibility to engage in the latter. Our elitist navel gazing isn’t helping.
That said, I am very glad to see you and I do understand your concerns. I just don’t view them as relevant to the subject of the post.
GC: Great examples, and I appreciate the focus on concrete reality.
I do feel there’s hierarchy in the feminist movement. I don’t dispute FR’s and others’ claims there. Women aren’t perfect, why would our movements be perfect when male-run lefty movements are far from it, and in many cases are much MORE hierarchical? But because we are women, we take criticisms along these lines to mean we need to toss out the baby with the bathwater.
That’s similar to the much ballyhooed examples of Carly Fiorina and/or Margaret Thatcher when women talk about more female representatives in corporations or politics. So if there are a couple of examples of women who aren’t perfect and have some of the same imperfect traits men have, then the whole break-the-glass-ceiling thing is flawed and elitist!
I call bullshit. Obviously, even now, the percentages of women at higher levels are small and there is a lot of pressure. Note, also, that folks who toss around Thatcher aren’t mentioning Meg Whitman or Oprah or Regina Pisa. Or, for that matter, Clarence Thomas! He’s just an aberration. But a woman who isn’t the perfect Senator or CEO – that means none of us are going to do anything any differently! Yeah, bullshit.
And you’re right, while Equal Pay Act is sometimes grouped loosely in with “mainstream, inclusive” aspects of the movement, the reality is that it affects lower income women quite significantly.
And your example about the children being taken away is a good one as well. I didn’t read the article, but it does sound as if there was an incomplete discussion of the context. If indeed the child wasn’t given medical care, that’s an issue that needs to be addressed. I’m pro choice, but certainly believe that children who’ve left the womb have rights.
Octogalore
You do feel there’s hierarchy in the feminist movement? You don’t dispute FR’s and others’ claims there?
What IS the hierarchy?
I believe in women working on their OWN issues and supporting one another when they do. If people don't organize for self, who would drag them in kicking and screaming? Or if WOC don't want to work with white women because they have to translate too much, then why force it? I don't get it and I wish you would use your eloquence to explain it to me.
I have always worked on economic issues - I have the stories on my blog - help wanted -male; help-wanted female (newspaper classifieds in the early days. AT&T, Sears, the trades, every pink collar ghetto issue (WHICH is why I like La Lube's comments - you should see her piece on apprenticeships - I actually saved it from over at feministe). I am too raw to be "privileged". Yet feminists of privilege have always helped me organize. They tended to work on a federal level while helping us in the states.Big time and when I was young and living in basements they helped me personally so I could organize. It was my peers that dragged me down.
And in the anti-rape movement, black and white women worked together even through horribly sensitive issues which no one had to translate because the problems were obvious. But the need was overwhelming. It was just important that when it got really sensitive white women asked black women what we should do. I was surprised at some of the answers but greatly encouraged.
What IS the hierarchy of the feminist movement?
The only thing I can think of is the academics in women's studies and really, I don't even believe they are feminists anymore.
and as I walked away from the computer I even thought of some really radical feminist academics that wrote books which helped me. Although there are some bad eggs there, many of the academics help less privileged women as well.
I just can't see the hierarchy
GC -- just in the sense any movement or group is hierarchical basedon different degrees of access to media and decision-making bodies. Not, I think, based on a larger intent to be that way, although obviously there are bad-apple individuals.
And I think feminism, because it's composed largely of people who are sensitive to discrimination, is more sensitive to the hierarchies that exist than other lefty movements. That doesn't make it perfect, of course, but I'm personally very proud to be part of it while trying to do what I can to address imperfections.
GC, there's no hierarchy in the idea of feminism but there's classism and racism in the movement.
I don’t encourage vague statements about “shirk[ing] the responsibility of privilege” here. Generally chastising feminists for riding the privilege train is not something I think is productive.
Worse, the vague use of the term becomes an excuse to substitute self-flagellation for actual productive work. Our elitist navel gazing isn’t helping.
I'll be impressed when communities of color tackle class and male privilege to the degree feminists chastize each other for classism or racism! That's waiting hundreds of years though.
O and DD
Are you all talking about individual women who you know in the movement? Because that, I agree, can be brutal.
Or is it the organizations and their work that are classist and racist?
O said access to media and political decision making are the problem area.
IMO none of us have "greater access to the media" which is owned often by foreign interests including those in Dubai and Saudi Arabia. Have you noticed that MSNBC, FOX, and CNN all had the exact same coverage of the pope's visit? Mass after mass after mass. The exact same coverage, even to the camera angles.
There are ways of using the media and some women just don't know how. Instead of learning, they whine about other women having privilege. It is ridiculous. The media hates women - it is misogynist owned by the GOBs. The women who don't know how to get coverage don't get it. But even organizers who can get coverage have to be very careful because if what you are doing in any way threatens corporate economic interests, or public morality which corporations need to function smoothly (control of the great unwashed, ORDER which is why they support religion), the action and organizers will be portrayed as racist or crazy. The economic interests will be disguised under those red herrings.
The media reflects the political interests of those who own it.
But as to greater access to political decision making - mostly that is the old boys club but some wealthy women have access - also some female members of the legal community. It is who you know and how much money you can donate to lobby. I never really see those women in the feminist movement. Some female politicians usually married to very wealthy men or who have inherited great wealth will show up at a feminist event to ask for votes.
But here in the area of politics, mass movements create change. It is all we have in the feminist movement. There has to be numbers to influence the political process to make feminist change.
I just do not think the feminist movement is made up of the privileged of the world, although they sometimes give us money.
As to racism,I know WOC feel better organizing separately from white women. I think that is natural but I don't like the hostility. In fact, I am just done accepting it.
Also I do not accept that being anti immigrant is racist. I know the first wave is accused of this as am I. But 30 million sexist, misogynist immigrants in this county, many who are wealthy with more than one wife, using home schooling to keep the daughters "traditional", tax supported Muslim schools, polygamy now being argued for legalization and shown in TV dramas as desirable, sending their children back for FGM and arranged marriages, all of this is a threat to US women's rights and our environment.
Additionally slave labor is breaking our unions and lowering our wages and eliminating benefits. Sex trafficking is part of this. It makes it impossible to organize AND THAT IS THE POINT OF ALLOWING UNLIMITED IMMIGRATION. This is disguised by calling opposition to illegal immigration racist.
As for class, I think feminists have done excellent around class issues. Poverty among women has been greatly impacted by the feminist movement far more than by organized labor. Feminist's campaigns have been ending economic discrimination against women in the home, in retirement and on the job. Additionally, the anti violence part of the movement has removed blocks to women's upward mobility and general mobility in society. I see that as combating poverty.
But I am thinking there is something specific that you know that I am not seeing. If that is true, tell me.
Octogalore -- am I off topic?
I just got what O meant about access to the media =-- the media cover violence against young pretty girls as opposed to women of color -- well that is not the fault of feminism and does not mean the feminist movement has greater access to the media or more media privilege. Ha! I am almost laughing -- and Paris Hilton? Is that what we are talking about?
Women - that is the sexism of the media and nothing to do with feminism and if any of those women ever opened her mouth about feminism she would be savaged as Hillary has been.
Who is pushing these lies about our movement -- who is funding the women making these complaints?
GC, it's more practical to get to the root of the problem, free trade agreements that exploit workers and lower wages. There's no doubt individual feminists and the movement are classist and racist. It's hard to see if you're white or work with feminists who aren't classist or racist.
I would never vote third party or leave the Democratic Party because there's too much there. Better to move the party left than start from scratch. Elect a real liberal Democrat! Hillary Clinton!
Donna, Yes individuals are both but not the movement. And Oh God yes Donna as to reworking our "free" trade agreements both for worker rights and the environment. Even regulate out sourcing and in sourcing.
But that is not the answer to the impact of illegal immigration on our rights because the corporations who run this country are deliberately encouraging illegal immigration to depress wages, civil rights and benefits.
You could not grow our cheap, toxic, environment killing, agri-business,
no-nutrition crops without slave labor. You could not run our brutal animal killing slaughterhouses and factory farms without slave labor. You cannot make obscene profits off the housing industry unless you build with day labor and on and on.
Illegal immigration cannot be organized to fight for rights because the threat of deportation without consequences to owners is always there. That is why both the corrupted unions and owners are fighting social security checks. Because the owners want that slave labor to be afraid and SS checks means they will have only citizens. The gangsters in the union leadership want to be able to get rid of scabs when it is convenient, ie when they no longer pay dues. A silent and scared slave labor force works for the rich and against the working class and is always used to destroy organizing efforts.
Read the story of the Tyson Chicken strikes. Now Tyson uses illegals although the fired strikers keep calling ICE. Now illegals are starting to be used in the mines.
Environmentally people must be forced to live in their own overpopulation out of respect for the earth. There is a whole mindset among Catholics, among Muslims, among fundamentalist Christans that unlimited reproduction is acceptable. They want to spred over the earth like a cancer. I want to stop that migration. I am willing to use foreign aid to economically develop people where they live but the problems they create in their own ecosphere, they should have the responsibility to solve. Humans should not be allowed to litter the earth and then move to a new place to despoil. Look at Haiti. Then look next door - different ecological and population control produces dramatically different results. Yes, we have a responsibility to help but people must take responsibility to make their own part of the world sustainable. It's not simple - calling opposition to unlimited immigration racist is simple.
Donna, unfortunately I think you’re right about hundreds of years.
GC, you said “There are ways of using the media and some women just don't know how.” That’s an access issue.
I agree with you – the hierarchy in the movement, I think, is largely due to existing hierarchies and not as much because there’s an intent to create it. The issue lies in whether there’s enough effort to fix it. But you and Donna are right – that isn’t about the overall issue of feminism but about the fact that the movement is composed of people and people are mired in problematic hierarchies.
You’re right, I don’t see many women who are among the group who have the MOST access being involved in feminism except in a token way. People use upper-middle or upper class too liberally. Most prominent feminists are middle class or lower-middle made good. That still implicates access issues for the lower income, of course, but when you look at the fact that most male lefty movements are led by more affluent folks, I’m not sure why feminists are the ones being called out the loudest.
I do feel that gendered abuse of immigrants is a feminist issue. But I too don’t believe in unlimited immigration.
I agree with everything you said including that gendered abuse of immigrant women is a feminist issue. I think that is not to be used as an excuse for unlimited immigration and we all know that is why the left (wealthy elite left) is using it. Because when did they even care or fund any programs to end gendered abuse? ASK THEM TO FUND PROGRAMS AND HIRE FEMINISTS AT $36,000 - $50,000 a year, which is what the boys in their think tanks make, and you will see how much they care about gendered abuse.
I get the publications of their think tanks and they are actually teaching their boys to used gender to gain approval for illegal immigration now. These are two I found quickly -- very wealthy people fund these institutions and research is gather to disguise their own economic interests rather than show how the working class suffers from unlimited immigration. So always remember to think as a feminist and as an environmentalist when devising solutions and programs. Never, never, accept solutions from these think tanks no matter if they come from left women calling them self feminists. Always ask how much they will pay feminists to end gender abuse in the immigration process.
"Reframing the Immigration Debate: The Rockridge Institute has a new paper, To Respect and Protect: Expanding our Discourse on Immigration, that emphasizes that progressives must change the "frame" on immigration from one of "conservative fears" (their lanuage) to one emphasizing the "global interdependence of working families in different countries" and how a "more progressive" immigration policy, including ending the economic exploitation of "economic refugees" (the Rockridge term) will "benefit" our whole society."
"In How Errors in Basic Pilot/E-Verify Databases Impact U.S. Citizens and Lawfully Present Immigrants, the National Immigration Law Center outlines that the program has gross deficiencies that, if the program is expanded in states, threaten the livelihood of hundreds of thousands of work-authorized immigrants and citizens who may be either wrongfully dismissed from or refused employment." (now who is using baseless fears to influence the working class?).
The think tank boys are making upwards of six figs, except entry level.
And yeah, the wealthy male left loves to tokenize feminism when it helps, just not when it helps us. We need to work harder to parse out when our goals really do intersect.
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