Sunday, May 11, 2008

Et Tu?

“It is, in truth, an argument virtually without precedent in modern political history, at least at this stage of such a close race. …The fact is that, until now, candidates have rarely, if ever, faced such a concerted movement (featuring prominent names, such as Bill Richardson, and a column in Slate titled "The Hillary Deathwatch"), urging them to drop out before their rival has clinched the nomination. To review the history:

• In 1988, Jesse Jackson took his hopeless campaign against winner Michael Dukakis all the way to the convention, often to great media praise.

• In 1980, Ted Kennedy carried his run against Jimmy Carter all the way to the convention, even though it was clear he had been routed.

• In 1976, Ronald Reagan contested the "inevitability" of Gerald Ford all the way to the convention. Few, then or since, have ever thought to criticize Reagan's failure to step aside and let Ford assume the mantle.

• Also in 1976, three candidates -- Mo Udall, Jerry Brown, and Frank Church -- ran against Jimmy Carter all the way through the final primaries, even though Carter seemed more than likely to be the eventual nominee.

• Even in 1960, Lyndon Johnson and Adlai Stevenson fought the "certain" nomination of John F. Kennedy all the way to the convention floor.

In fact, until this year, it's been an axiom of American politics that candidates are allowed to pursue their runs until they decide to drop out -- which is usually, by the way, when they run out of money. Even Mike Huckabee kept running against John McCain in this campaign long after it was obvious he had no hope of winning the GOP nod.

Yet in one of the tightest races in modern history -- before the opponent has come close to clearly clinching the nomination, before a number of voters have been given the chance to have their voices heard, and when Clinton still has a chance, albeit a slim one, to win the prize, she is continually vilified for failing to see the light and bow out. What gives?”

From Steven Stark, h/t Violet Socks .

Good question. And based on more recent news, it’s still early days compared to the stage Kennedy, Jackson, Reagan, Stevenson, took things – without violent rebuke.

Violet sums it up: “Yes, all candidates with penises have the right to compete.”

Recently, I’ve been saddened to hear liberal feminists expressing hostile “fuck yous” asking Hillary to exit, damning her for her ambition. Both online and offline. I care about and respect a number of these women.

And I guess the question occurs to me – is there a special resentment that (some) women have towards successful women that’s distinct from the well-known issues (some) men have? Or is it part of the same oldie-but-goodie – sexism?

I believe some of them may have been voters during one or more of the administrations mentioned in Stark’s and Violet Socks’ posts noted above. I’d bet that this vitriol, if it even existed, remained bottled up.

I can understand why people feel strongly about a Democratic administration and about the importance of getting behind that. However, in each of the cases in which a man was allowed without massive uproar about his “ambition” (code for that, feminists? “unseemly in a woman”), there was also an argument to be made that it would be better for the party if he got behind his same-party rival. But people seemed to understand the importance of democracy, of counting all votes, of giving everyone a fair shot. As Stark says: “until this year, it's been an axiom of American politics that candidates are allowed to pursue their runs until they decide to drop out.”

Common themes in such posts are resentment that a woman must be staying in because of personal ambition rather than a true belief that she would do the best job; that she feels “owed;” discussion of how annoying HRC’s voice allegedly is; the fact that it’s ungraceful to stay in; the fact that women in power don’t really make much of a difference for other women because: Carly Fiorina. Margaret Thacher. Cruella DeVille. The Evil Stepmother.

Let’s take a few of these. And by a few, I mean the ones that fucking irritate me the most.

Wait, I just looked at the list and they ALL fucking irritate me.

“Personal ambition.” So clearly, Kennedy et al were doing what they thought was the right thing for our country. But because of the vagina thing, this must just be a “mirror on the wall” phenom. (BTW, do you ever hear a word like “close-up” in these discussions to describe what HRC is going for here? Kennedy was reputed to avoid hats, at all times, to keep his famous hair intact and not lose any of it. But guys aren’t vain!) I haven’t seen any substantive explanation for why it’s so obvious that HRC does not honestly believe she would best positioned to be effective.

Feeling “owed” – hmm, seems like a reference to getting doors held or getting payback for what she went through, tit for tat perhaps (or, tat for tit?). Here again, an assumption that this kind of determination must stem from some kind of sorority girl motivation. Sexism much? Also, let’s put our money where our mouth is, ladies. Are you as independent in your lives and decision-making as HRC has been? Do you exhibit any dependency in your life, in ways that similarly situated men might not be able or feel able to take advantage of? In other words, any projection involved? Maybe a little?

Her voice – I’m going to assume my readers can fill in the blanks here. Just to indicate what we all know -- the adjectives and verbs used here would not be used of a male candidate. YKWIM.

Ungraceful/undignified to stay in. This has “walk five paces behind” all over it. Fighting was apparently dignified enough for the boyz.

And finally, the predicatable allusions to Fiorina, Thatcher, Golda Meir, Oprah, Carol Mosely Braun, Meg Whitman, Regina Pisa… oh wait, only the first two are ever mentioned. Interesting, why in flailing about how unhelpful it would be for women to occupy closer to half of positions of significant responsibility and visibility, would a fellow woman mention only women who have been viewed as possessing the worst male traits? Why would women who have done things differently, mentored other women, been good role models not be mentioned? Is there something else at stake here?

Now, I’m not arguing that once women get within shooting distance of 50% representation that the world will be all about peace and kittens. I think women can have many of the same competitive and capitalist instincts men do. But just as nobody would question why Antonio Villairagosa has had a positive impact on POC in politics by saying “Clarence Thomas!” we don’t need to rely on peace and kittens in making that argument about women.

I happen to think women would bring in some subtle differences in decision-making. But we don’t need to rely on that either. Anyone in an organization, governmental or public or nonprofit, that has minority or female representation knows that this makes it easier for other POC and women and also sends a message to the larger community of POC and women about their possibilities. (I personally have seen well-positioned POC and women reach out specifically to get organizations involved in causes targeting lower-income POC and women.)

So there’s a whole lot more to it than a petulant “Fiorina!” or “Medusa!” would imply.

I am hopeful that the women jumping on this particular bandwagon are having an emotional reaction to an emotional primary season. I hope that the two alternatives posited are not the case. We have enough sexism coming from guys. And the other possibility, a specific reaction against female ambition on the part of other women – I hope that’s not it either. I’ve seen that all up close and personal, and it ain’t pretty.

But then, the women I saw that coming from weren’t feminists.

18 comments:

DBB said...

I'd argue that actually what makes a more compelling case for her to drop out is that she is so close (though still has no real chance of getting enough delegates). With the other races, like even with Huckabee in this race, once it is beyond clear who is going to win, it really doesn't hurt party unity for someone who clearly has no chance to win to stay in the race. They are a non-factor.

But with Clinton, she could at least theoretically get the nomination by superdelegates overriding the will of the primary voters - though even this is unlikely, it at least is a possibility. So this prevents Obama from declaring victory and prevents the party from starting to coalesce around a single nominee.

So ironically, it is because she is so close (yet still extraordinarily unlikely to get) the nomination that her staying in the race causes problems.

If she had 10 delegates, her staying in the race would be irrelevant and no one would be asking her to drop out - frankly, no one would care. Just like no one particularly cared when those prior candidates who were listed stayed in the race. They had no chance, so it didn't matter.

Note that this has nothing to do with who has a penis. I really don't care if she stays in or drops out. I just don't care to follow the race at all anymore - someone wake me when it is over. I think it would be better for the party at this point for her to drop out and get behind Obama, but of all the dumb things the Democratic party does, this is a minor point. I just want it to be over so I can pull the D lever and hope to see at least some of the damage caused by Bush start to get addressed, though I barely have any hope that that will actually happen even under a President Obama or Clinton.

Octogalore said...

DBB: Reagan-Ford in '76 was a close race. I hardly put a lot of merit in the idea that because Clinton "could at least theoretically get the nomination" that means she should drop out. Next!

DBB said...

My point is that there is no reason to ask someone to drop out when it isn't close, so to compare this race to previous races where the nominee was a foregone conclusion is not a fair comparison.

Was there any possible way Ford would not be the nominee by the end of the primaries? If not, then it is not a fair comparison.

But like I said, I really don't care if she stays in or not. I really don't even pay attention to the race. It is all noise and bullshit. I know who I'm voting for. Whomever is the Dem nominee. Nothing in the media or even in most of the blogsphere is about anything of any consequence anyway - what is said on the campaign trial usually has nothing at all to do with what happens in office. So this endless analysis of speeches or remarks or what have you is a total waste of electrons.

The big unfortunate thing is that the Democrats lack the spine to do what they should do once they get the office: put Bush and his cronies on trial for war crimes, for violating the constitution, FISA, and a whole host of other laws, and then throw their asses in jail. But that will never happen.

Octogalore said...

According to wiki, Reagan posed a stiff challenge, winning several significant primaries and not withdrawing until the convention.

I'm going to call a moratorium at this point on this particular argument. I don't believe it holds water and it distracts from the main point. This does not explain the rancor of the posts.

smmo said...

I've always planned to support wholeheartedly whichever one of them wins, but the misogyny directed at HRC is really, really disheartening. I don't blame Obama for that. Misogyny is just below the surface everywhere and always.

To state the obvious, there is a longstanding expectation in politics that women should set aside their personal ambition for the greater good. This is, IMO, a major factor in the resentments between feminism and other progressive movements. You wait! No, YOU wait! Why should I wait? Well why should I? Sexism is deep-seeded. Our mothers sacrifice for us and so it begins.

I fail to see that the protracted fight between Clinton and Obama is hurting the Democrats' chances. Where they are dynamic and in the news, McCain is getting the endorsements of soap opera stars and trying to keep his wife quiet. Of course money is a major issue, and whatever money they are spending in fighting each other they won't have for McCain, I suppose. I just hope they can end up uniting the party. I also believe in unicorns.

The fact is that HRC and Obama have rather similar policy positions and if one is vehemently supporting one over the other it is about something other than the issues. I've always felt that HRC, given the 20 years or so of practice she's had, would be a better choice to get in there and FIGHT these fuckheadsthat have damn near ruined our country. She knows how to fight dirty and isn't afraid to do so, and we all know how hard it is to beat the Repugs fair and square. But I like Obama fine and certainly will vote for him.

Daisy said...

The discussion of her VOICE and her CLOTHES and yada yada, God that shit drives me freaking insane!!!

Pat Buchanan said Hillary's voice climbs higher and higher and "finally achieves the tone every husband in America can recognize" (i.e. nagging) and the Chris Matthews/Keith Olbermann talking head duo at MSNBC laughed their asses off, "Careful, Pat! You're in dangerous territory!" they chortled. Oh yeah, so dangerous that they are har-har-har-ing all over supposedly "serious" primary coverage.

Right.

I think you know my feelings about this stuff.

Daisy said...

Did you see this thread at Alas?:

A quick, annoyed note to my fellow Obama supporters, regarding sexist jokes and Clinton-derision

Octogalore said...

"The fact is that HRC and Obama have rather similar policy positions and if one is vehemently supporting one over the other it is about something other than the issues. I've always felt that HRC, given the 20 years or so of practice she's had, would be a better choice to get in there and FIGHT these fuckheadsthat have damn near ruined our country."

I have to say, I vehemently support Clinton ahead of Obama. There are poly-sci majors who could put together a position website I'd think was better than both of the nominees' according to my politics, and I still wouldn't think that person qualified just because s/he'd articulated good positions.

I think for me it gets down to inspiration vs perspiration, and I think the job requires just as much if not more of the latter. I think Obama's an impressive guy in many ways, but almost as soon as he got into the Senate he started campaigning. I also note that his paid staff includes very few women (whereas HRC's is over 50%); he's been iffy on women's issues (though far superior to McC) and I believe he has not compared to HRC in debates in which he's had to think on his feet and pull from his knowledge base. Hers appears always at the ready.

So for that reason, although I feel strongly about a Democratic administration, I do vehemently support HRC over BHO.

Octogalore said...

Daisy -- thanks for the link. I especially liked yours and Ruth Hoffman's comments in that thread. It lacked objective commentary about whether HRC's statements were actually racist as opposed to putting forth demographic facts, however. But I appreciate the sentiments about avoiding what my husband calls the "Bang Bang the Witch is Dead" lingo that we are seeing -- yes, even in the feminist blogosphere.

GeekLove said...

I helped create the “Mad is Hell” video along with IndyRobin.

I created a NEW VIDEO: “We’ve Come a Long Way, Baby!”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke64670GkZ8

It’s about Obama’s silence on sexism against Hillary Clinton and his own sexist remarks.

If you approve of the video, I’d appreciate your help in spreading the video by creating a post on the video and ask that you and your readers go to youtube to RATE, COMMENT & mark FAVORITE the video.

Thanks.

GeekLove said...

I helped create the “Mad is Hell” video along with IndyRobin.

I created a NEW VIDEO: “We’ve Come a Long Way, Baby!”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke64670GkZ8

It’s about Obama’s silence on sexism against Hillary Clinton and his own sexist remarks.

If you approve of the video, I’d appreciate your help in spreading the video by creating a post on the video and ask that you and your readers go to youtube to RATE, COMMENT & mark FAVORITE the video.

Thanks.

Daisy said...

Don't underestimate the ageism, either. Old women are supposed to sit down and STFU after menopause. We are officially NOT IMPORTANT. And I wish I could say feminists were not like that, too, but I've noticed the OPPOSITE: they just assume they are more radical because they are young and well-educated. Yesterday, I had someone on a feminist blog explain to me who a certain famous feminist was, as if I didn't know.

Here we go again.

I answered: I am very familiar with ___, and even met her once when she was on her book tour for ___.

Her answer:

"That's not possible since that book was PUBLISHED in 1978!"

Well, yeah, I know--I was there.

And then, as usual, they just stop responding to me. Somehow, they were fooled into thinking I was as good as they are, then they find out I am OLD and therefore I am NOT SUPPOSED TO BE TALKING and how dare I speak up when I'm NOT SUPPOSED TO?

Same with Hillary, I think. The obsessions with her clothes, her voice, translation = she isn't COOL, because older women are NOT COOL.

I really haven't wanted to think this is true, but it IS true.

:(

Octogalore said...

You're right. And it hits women much sooner. You hear folks invoking McCain's age, but they weren't doing that when he was 60. And Bill Clinton, 61, is still considered a sex symbol, albeit an aging one. Despite the fact that she's in better health, likely, than either of them at 60.

It amuses me when 20-somethings like to claim they deal with ageism going the other direction which is just as critical! Honey, what's more serious: having to wait a few years, or the words "never again?" I think you may recall a thread along those lines.

With the current ongoing discussion about having feminist blog staff be more diverse, I wonder if anyone has picked up on the fact that there are very few women over 40 and even fewer (if any) over 50 headlining these blogs? Oh, I forgot, that's not really a sexy, hip issue to be concerned about.

I figure I'll get all the anger out of my system at 40 so that when I hit 50, 60 etc. I'll be resigned.

Who am I kidding?

Cassandra Says said...

RE The Witch Is Dead comments, check this out.

"Glenn Close should have stayed in that tub, and Sen. Clinton has had a remarkable career and needs to move to the next step, which is helping elect the Democratic nominee," (Tennessee rep Steve) Cohen said.

Could he make the "kill the bitch" sentiments any more obvious?

Octogalore said...

Wow, CS! I think not. That's horrendous.

Here's one right back at you from http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/. No comment from me, only a simple quote:

"WXYZ reporter Peggy Agar asked Obama at a campaign stop, 'How are you going to help the American auto workers?'

Obama told Agar to 'hold on, sweetie,' and said he would address that issue with her later. Agar said she never got an answer to her question."

Cassandra Says said...

If someone I was interviewing called me "sweetie" I would not be amused, especially if they were ducking my (entirely reasonable) question.

Octogalore said...

I just hope it's not a metaphor for what will happen when women's issues arise.

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