Taking off on some of the comments in the previous ageism post. It seems like people are saying that attraction, even physical attraction, doesn’t always correspond to who is technically better looking. By “better looking,” I mean from a mainstream perspective and also from the perspective of the person making the decision.
I would suggest (please correct me if you disagree) that this is most prevalent from a woman’s perspective in a hetero relationship.
Why? Because women are schooled to view other characteristics to supplement our view of what’s attractive. And given the ingrained myth of the man being the more active in the world, while the woman supports or receives, characteristics going along with this action are imbued with perception of attractiveness.
Sometimes this is about how good someone looks when he’s standing on his wallet, but we all know that many May-Sept relationships involve a “May” who’s not wealthy or powerful. (My dad’s in one). And wealthy/powerful women do not appear to be imbued by hawtness by mainstream opinion.
One of my partners told me a joke that ostensibly came from “a friend – this isn’t MY joke,” he claimed – it went like this: “OK so you’ve got one presidential candidate who’s a lawyer and married to a bitchy lawyer. You’ve got another one who’s a bitchy lawyer and married to a lawyer. Then you’ve got one who’s married to a blonde whos dad owns a beer distributorship and she’s got boobs out to here. Who’s got the best judgment?”
Now, luckily this particular partner (or his “friend” if you buy that) isn’t representative of all guys. But many guys would laugh at the joke, and might think --- hmmmm--- before they realized: 1) why are only the female lawyers “bitchy” and 2) marrying busty blondes is a pretty stupid criterion for presidential judgment, otherwise we’d wind up with Hefner.
So in his offensive way I think he’s got something. We are judged by the people we are with. And we judge ourself that way. They reflect upon us. As a man, a doer, a woman who represents fun and decoration – nice backdrop scenery -- is perceived as complementary. As a woman, traditionally viewed as more passive/decorative, an actor to bring the scenery to life is most attractive.
The more evolved we are, the less this fits. But I think we’re all poisoned by it to a degree. Looking around, most of our examples in real life, in movies and books, car dealerships, boardrooms, medicine, law, union halls, store management. Who’s pulling the reins? Who is responding, signing on the second line?
As Renee says here: “I think part of the reason it takes so long for women to trust themselves is because we are raised to be submissive and believe in the fantasy of the white dress and the blood diamond rock.”
We all know, in many stories with a female protagonist, the conclusion is a proposal or wedding (name a “chick flick”). That’s the end goal. Stories with male protagonists often have to do with career tumult (Bright Lights Big City) or intrigue (Godfather) or action (Mad Max, Indiana Jones).
I come back to this from the previous post:
“I think if the roles of man = provider/actor and woman = decorative, passive receiver were more averaged out, we'd see more [situations in which women’s age and maturity are part of, or at the very least do not diminish from, her attractiveness].”
Many will toss out things like “biology” and “wiring” and back that up by talking about things like spreading of seed. To which I toss out things like “birth control” and “who has more orgasms per unit time?” and “child support” and “three months [last trimester, the only time most women experience significant impact from pregnancy]” and “breast pump.” I do not know many guys who have a desire to have large numbers of expensive dependents with multiple women. Nor do I know many women who were bedridden and/or unproductive during a large part of their pregnancies. I do know many men who experienced the same post-partum bond as their spouses. I am no biologist and I’m not claiming it plays no role, but I think the degree to which it does is greatly exaggerated.
Renee continued further to say “Life has a way of making you disillusioned while at the same time forcing you to confront yourself. As I age I am more willing to take risks because I know who I am. I defined myself and am secure in my identity.”
This is the kind of thing that is culturally, mainstream attractive – sexy even – in a man. But not as much in a woman. There are certainly some evolved guys out there who are actively looking for someone with these characteristics. But of that group, a much smaller subset are actually sexually attracted to them.
This gets back to the rescue concept. Hetero women, generally, are not attracted to the idea of a blank page, work in progress, rescuee. Obviously, given our Cinderella culture, hetero men, even liberal ones, feel mostly differently.
What if we got to a place where women were as likely to be provider/actor as men? I don’t know that this gap could sustain. There might still be a gap. I bet it would be much smaller.
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Octo,
"Many will toss out things like “biology” and “wiring” and back that up by talking about things like spreading of seed. To which I toss out things like “birth control” and “who has more orgasms per unit time?” and “child support” and “three months [last trimester, the only time most women experience significant impact from pregnancy]” and “breast pump.” ... I’m not claiming it plays no role, but I think the degree to which it does is greatly exaggerated."
Well, I think the main problem here is biological and cultural evolution: Our genetic substance hasn't changed much in the last tens of thousands of years, our culture has changed significantly every other year, the more recent, the faster, not least because there are more people who interact and propel change. So I think it's no wonder we see incongruencies between the biological and cultural imperatives.
What I generally don't like is the assertion that any individual has the ability to simply change things just because they're allegedly only "cultural". If you've been brought up one way or another, that's probably almost as carved into stone as your DNA sequence.
And there will probably never be a logical way to discern the two, certainly not with respect to something like sexual attraction (which as you may remember is what I believe is the key element in the whole gender equation), as puberty comes relatively late in a human brain's development.
For all the cultural effects, sex is nature's idea to shuffle genes around. Survival is only relevant to ensure procreation - genes are selfish. We as humans may have climbed up Maslow's self motivational ladder invented humanism, made the individual the center of attention and potentially even self-actualised ourselves, but the fundamental reason we form sexual partnerships is procreation. I doubt you doubt that.
So a potential partner is - if only subconsciously - vetted for their procreation value, which is very likely the origin of some universal "measures of beauty" (althoug the cross-cultural ideal hip-waist ratio of women interestingly isn't equal to the golden mean). And, of course, there's an age problem, in that women are less able to procreate after a certain age than men are - not they necessarily want to procreate, but it's hard to get around the things our brain has defined as attractive.
That said, the male's attraction rule seems to be avoidance of ugliness, not beauty per se (I can find the study with that conclusion, but my notebook is being repaired right now). A blank page isn't something I think most guys are interested in in a woman as long as she measures up to their individual visual demands. Men are taking other criteria into account than looks - just recently I had a great conversation with a girl (interestingly, the first one in which a gender-discussion seemed to lead to attraction ;)) and when I wondered at some point why I felt that something was wrong, it wasn't her looks, it was her voice that I realised I wouldn't want to hear as often as any kind of relationship would require. And I've said goodbye to more than one beautiful woman because they did not have anything to add to a conversation and did not know who they are, and what they want from life.
But believe me - if there was a way to rationally make their brain find all the conventionally less attractive women more attractive, all men would do it. I have one friend who's a truly happy guy, and not least, I suppose, because he likes bigger women, those who are usually not getting a lot of male attention. He's the scarce resource , and he get's to pick. If we could choose what we find attractive, we'd probably all want to be like him.
Actually, the attraction switch is partly happening with age - I realise that I now find a lot more women physically attractive than I did a couple of years ago. Sure there's the effect that the appropriate age range is larger for a 30yo than for a 20yo, but still - I feel that I'm reacting differently. And I think most of the guys I know are feeling the same.
WRT signing on the second line: when I first knew Mr. Carping we indulged our shared interest in wine quite, um, freely. And when we went out, he made a point of asking the server to have me taste the wine. So of course I married him. Not that he is perfect or even close to it, but I liked that he recognized an absurd ritual when he saw one and was happy to tweak it. I usually drive too.
My problem with discussions of this nature, ev. psych. or whatever, is that it is generally used to excuse males. We just get "men are hard wired to like Pamela Anderson and cheat blah blah nonsense and never hear an explanation as to why primates don't all live in nuclear families and practice matriarchy, polyandry etc. Even if we grant that biology is driving certain behaviors, perhaps it is past time to get the fuck over it and, as women have had to overcome their supposed biological drives and work and have fewer or no children, that men might consider keeping their dicks in their pants and changing a few diapers.
But believe me - if there was a way to rationally make their brain find all the conventionally less attractive women more attractive, all men would do it.
I think this has little to do with biology and everything to do with peer pressure. The fact is, plenty of men DO sleep with fat or otherwise not Patriarchy Approved™ women (as a fat chick I can attest to this) with apparent relish. Having the hot chick is about being viewed as The Guy Who Has The Hot Chick.
“What I generally don't like is the assertion that any individual has the ability to simply change things just because they're allegedly only ‘cultural’.”
Strawargument. Not made here.
“So a potential partner is - if only subconsciously - vetted for their procreation value, which is very likely the origin of some universal "measures of beauty" (althoug the cross-cultural ideal hip-waist ratio of women interestingly isn't equal to the golden mean). And, of course, there's an age problem, in that women are less able to procreate after a certain age than men are - not they necessarily want to procreate, but it's hard to get around the things our brain has defined as attractive.”
First of all, you’re talking here about a relatively small subset: women 35-40. Women over 40 will likely be most interested in men who already have children or do not want them. I think fatherhood over 45 can work but is iffy. It’s not just the woman who has a bio clock. Men suffer a decrease in energy (a key ingredient for a parent) in their 40s and how many times does a kid really want to “introduce me to your mom and grandpa!” Also, male age has been linked strongly to miscarriage rate.
And, women 35-40 can get pregnant naturally, via high tech (recognizing that privilege is involved here, but maybe someday we’ll have universal HC which will cover it) or can freeze eggs. Or adopt.
Also, the attraction to youth is not just based on procreation. My dad at 72 is married to a 55-year-old. They met five years ago. I don’t think he thought she’d be having kids.
As SMMO said, most of the time “hard wiring” serves simply as an excuse. Women could do that too! Know where “bring home the bacon” comes from? Men used to go out and kill the meat and bring home dinner. You guys doing that much anymore?
Additionally, caveperson life may explain the origin of gender roles, but does not explain their continuation.
Finally, women too vet men for their procreation value. Both, I think, value first their prospective children’s safety and well being, and next their physical and mental traits. Because of the active-providor/passive-decoration dynamic still being out there, modeled in the average person’s activities, men tend to focus vetting on the physical genes because they assume they’ll be taking care of the safety/security thing. Women do not make that assumption and therefore are willing to trade off the strapping physical oomph thing for security.
But I see this as less biological than practical. And while I don’t think change happens seamlessly, I do think that it will occur with practical changes.
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SMMO -- a guy who can tweak gender roles with aplomb is a find indeed.
"as women have had to overcome their supposed biological drives and work and have fewer or no children, that men might consider keeping their dicks in their pants and changing a few diapers."
Yes. MrO managed to emerge from frequent diapering duty with his dick still attached and fully functional.
And speaking of which, if "wiring" is so important and all, what about women's peak age vs men's? What about the fact that at a certain point most men need the little blue pill to keep up with us? If we were wired to adapt to these phenomena, we should probably adjust by taking young lovers at that point! The little blue pill, or worse, our having to do extra work, is not "natural."
Somehow, this little factoid doesn't often make its way into "hard (?) wiring 101" though.
Smmo,
"My problem with discussions of this nature, ev. psych. or whatever, is that it is generally used to excuse males."
Sure, anthropology is probably far more complex than we can all imagine, and it's certainly possible to argue that civilisation as we know it is a "market failure" or that the theories of "female mate choice" are simply rationalisations of socialised power structures, but in human mating, apparently, males are competing for female reproductive resources.
"We just get "men are hard wired to like Pamela Anderson and cheat"
Actually, there is also research into why women cheat, how much they do it, and, interestingly, why they a) do it more often when they're ovulating and b) why they significantly prefer men with markers of higher testosterone levels when they're looking to cheat and prefer men with markers of a lower testosterone level for longer term relationships. Interestingly, women in several studies also wore significantly less clothing when they were going out while ovulating.
"blah blah nonsense and never hear an explanation as to why primates don't all live in nuclear families and practice matriarchy, polyandry etc."
I think if you look in the animal kingdom, you can find everything you're looking for to support any statement about human sexuality. Still, that there are bad arguments doesn't invalidate the good ones. It just forces us to evaluate careful.
"Even if we grant that biology is driving certain behaviors, perhaps it is past time to get the fuck over it"
I doubt I can willingly decide to shut down a certain part of my brain functions and decide that my body will react differently to dopamine... we can't "get over biology" (do you ever watch HOUSE?) but it is important to understand that most *behaviours aren't determined* biologically, but that humans seem to have *a biological disposition* for a range of behaviours.
"and, as women have had to overcome their supposed biological drives and work and have fewer or no children"
Fertility is a complex function based on a number of factors - I doubt there is an individual drive to have as many children as possible - I suppose it has more to do with the feeling that the kids will be able to survive. The social replacement rate is at 2.1 children per women in the industrial world, where child mortality is low. I don't think women have had to overcome their maternal drives - but I agree that the rising number of voluntarily childless women (and men) is an interesting phenomenon (if they are truly voluntarily childless, and it's not just a rationalisation for 'I did not find the right one').
", that men might consider keeping their dicks in their pants and changing a few diapers."
You know what most of my female friends who just gave birth seem to be most scared of (OK, that's anecdotal evidence, but still)? That their boyfriends/husbands will keep their "dicks in their pants" and no longer see them as sexual beings. I haven't seen any young father who doesn't want to play a role in their child's early education - it's just not easy for them. Women always complain about how to combine motherhood and a career, but taking time off to care for a child is possibly even harder for a father since there is even less social understanding (and not rarely less understanding by their girlfriends/wives, as they don't want to renounce to the income) - still, when the "father months" (paid paternity leave) were introduced in Germany last year, the applications by far exceeded the government's wildest expectations So I have the impression that this is changing.
"I think this has little to do with biology and everything to do with peer pressure."
Well, I would not say that peer pressure doesn't have a biological origin - males competing for the scarce female resources IS peer pressure, isn't it?
"The fact is, plenty of men DO sleep with fat or otherwise not Patriarchy Approved™ women (as a fat chick I can attest to this) with apparent relish."
That's great. But if that's so, then why would you consider these women as "not Patriarchy ApprovedTM". ;)
"Having the hot chick is about being viewed as The Guy Who Has The Hot Chick."
That's probably partly true. But it's really not the entire explanation. Beauty is not just a trophy to brag with, it has an evolutionary function. In my understanding, the ultimate reason for male status determining competitinos is improved access to female reproductive resources (actually the only reason to get up ;)), so being with the hot chick (well, a woman you think has favorable genes) is the point of the competition, not the bragging rights. If "being the guy with hot chick" is useful in that context, it's probably not because of other men, but because other women may prefer men who have been preselected by other women (preferably of high status) - it's an indirect information about the guy's reproductive value.
Octo,
"Additionally, caveperson life may explain the origin of gender roles, but does not explain their continuation."
Well, I think gender roles are constantly changing, although slowly, as they need to convey information and that means they need time to be institutionalised - so even desired change will necessarily be slow. The problem is discerning the things that can be culturally influenced from the things that cannot easily/realistically be changed, because they're rooted at an even more fundamental level.
"It’s not just the woman who has a bio clock."
You're right. But her clock is more obvious and running a little faster - can we agree on that?
"Also, the attraction to youth is not just based on procreation. My dad at 72 is married to a 55-year-old. They met five years ago. I don’t think he thought she’d be having kids."
Well, I don't think attraction is a conscious process.
"Finally, women too vet men for their procreation value."
Of course they do, and they get to choose.
"what about women's peak age vs men's?"
Good point, but I suppose our genes aren't really reflecting the recent rise in life expectancy yet.
Personally, I am fascinated with everything concerning human attraction/mating. And I've had to change my mind about some things. All in all I think I'm now believing that more behaviours are the result of "nurture" than when I started being interested in this area. All this is quite compley, particularly if one doesn't have the answer before one has the question. I currently think biology as an influencing factor is significantly overrated in pop culture and significantly underrated in most of feminism - mostly, I suppose, for one simple reason: feminism is based in sociology.
Tobias -- I meant sexual peak, not life expectancy.
"but we all know that many May-Sept relationships involve a “May” who’s not wealthy or powerful."
Power is something that is very subjective. If we agree that all males exist with male privilege they are inherently in a place of power. The only thing that varies is how each male negotiates that privilege. Sometimes it is enough for a man to be an aggressive personality to have women be attracted to him. I personally find that kind of behavior a turn off, and have been known to run screaming from the annoying alpha-male type. I cannot speak on behalf of all women but I can say that it is my experience that many women experience femininity from the position of a natural submissive, so that even though their public behavior may be perceived as confident and sure in their private relationships they often revert to sex kitten/ Beavers mom role play. The desire to be dominated allows some women to choose someone who is not necessarily physically attractive in the classic sense that we have socially internalized. This is what the "bad boy" has survived on for generations.
Renee continued further to say “Life has a way of making you disillusioned while at the same time forcing you to confront yourself. As I age I am more willing to take risks because I know who I am. I defined myself and am secure in my identity.”
This is the kind of thing that is culturally, mainstream attractive – sexy even – in a man. But not as much in a woman.
Ugh, no kidding. I find a LOT of men state they are initially very attracted to me for exactly that, but they quickly devolve to irritation that I'm not playing a submissive role to their dominant one.
I'm not sure if this is just some dick-waving wish to show how great they are by dominating someone less submissive, or if it's sheer confusion at social indoctrination -- maybe a confident person is what they're really attracted to, but the peer-pressure fear of failing to be "male" enough is at war with that.
Beauty is not just a trophy to brag with, it has an evolutionary function.
If that is so, then how do the standards of what is beautiful change so often, much faster than any evolutionary adjustment could account for?
The only thing that varies is how each male negotiates that privilege. Sometimes it is enough for a man to be an aggressive personality to have women be attracted to him.
SO true. And while I don't discount entirely that we are, indeed, animals, I think socialization and cultural representations of the alpha male are a bigger factor in why aggressive men, regardless of actual power, are often attractive to women.
And now I'm off to have a break from my biological destiny (husband, kid) which I only mention so y'all don't think I'm flouncing.
Renee: “Power is something that is very subjective. If we agree that all males exist with male privilege they are inherently in a place of power.”
Right. That’s what gives him the power, not inherent power necessarily.
“ The desire to be dominated allows some women to choose someone who is not necessarily physically attractive in the classic sense that we have socially internalized. This is what the "bad boy" has survived on for generations.”
Agree. And my question – is the desire to be dominated purely biological? Or, as I think, stemming from a cultural expectation of rescue and subsequent cognitive-dissonance-like decision to find attractive characteristics that suggest ability to rescue? The ultra-confident guy or even the “bad boy” project invulnerability.
Women are more likely to obey the rules, but we question them just as much. The “bad boy” offers an alternative. We don’t have to rebel ourselves, but can rebel through him. And he’s not rebelling in a soft, questioning way but in a decisive “fuck you” way that makes us feel safe.
At some point, in our mid/late 20s or 30s even (in my case), we see enough of these bad boys crash and burn and revise our opinions of how attractive they are. Also, we may decide that we can step up and rebel ourselves, which usually takes a different form than that which the bad boy chooses.
Helen: “I find a LOT of men state they are initially very attracted to me for exactly that, but they quickly devolve to irritation that I'm not playing a submissive role to their dominant one.”
Ain’t that the truth? That was about 75% of my “game” as a stripper 8 years ago – “your dick’s even bigger now because here’s someone with some of the same on-paper creds and attitude as you have, but wearing much fewer clothes so you’re still in charge!”
It’s kind of like mastercard. Finding a guy who wants a lapdance from a chick with attitude: $30. Finding that guy who wants a confident person for her own sake and not based on how that reflects on him: priceless.
Smmo,
"If that is so, then how do the standards of what is beautiful change so often, much faster than any evolutionary adjustment could account for?"
That very much depends on what you define as "beauty". There are a couple of constants that seem to hold across time and culture - the most important one for women is probably the hip-waist ratio (0.7-0.72, irrespective of the woman's weight), a V shaped back for men and symmetry of body parts, particularly facial symmetry for both sexes.
Octo,
"And my question – is the desire to be dominated purely biological?"
I doubt it. But the part of behaviour that possibly is is quite a puzzle - what's the benefit? Is it the evolutionary behavioural consequence of female screening for testosterone (aggression/dominance) when muscles were the main source of protection? Interesting question.
Right, but Tobias, the point is that the "constants" don't apply as much to men as they used to. Braun is king in caveperson times and often in the animal kingdom, but a guy is often as tall as he is when he stands on his wallet, and as packing as he is with his wallet in his front pocket (disclaimer: I prefer the more traditional measurements).
And per earlier posts, for guys it doesn't have to be pure wallet; a host of other non-looks-based confidence/security markers can substitute.
So what it comes down to is: the high-tech evolution from ancient times has helped men in allowing a number of traits to be coded as "sexy."
I've thrown out my $.02 on how women could achieve this. We've seen that biology is subject to a number of caveats, and I propose that these don't just benefit men.
Older men are generally given more of a break than older women in the attractiveness stakes. George Clooney probably wouldn't be an A-list star if he were a woman.
On the other hand, I've seen some men who are old, overweight and frankly ugly, with very young, very attractive wives. Now either money and power make men vastly more attractive, or women sometimes choose their mates with more in mind than attractiveness.
But why don't men?
The easy answer is that women are generally less wealthy than men.
Ok, that's fine, it explains a difference. But there's an almost total absence of old, fat, ugly women with young and attractive husbands. And there are old, fat, ugly, yet rich, women.
The thing is that women very rarely pay for any sort of sexual favour. It happens, but it's not pervasive. Men paying for women is incredibly pervasive. At a very low level: buying drinks.
I'm a straight guy. I've never had a strange woman buy me a drink in a bar. I've only gone to a few gay bars with gay, or thereabouts friends. Yet I've had gay men buy me drinks. I've had girlfriends, even with me sitting there, that would get given more drinks than they wanted, and I'd be drinking free that night.
So I think that whatever cultural or biological forces led to the difference in the way men and wwomen are valued, coldhardcash is a pretty strong force in maintaining it.
Moral of the story: if women really want equality, they've got to give me beer.
Octo,
"Braun is king in caveperson times and often in the animal kingdom, but a guy is often as tall as he is when he stands on his wallet, and as packing as he is with his wallet in his front pocket (disclaimer: I prefer the more traditional measurements)."
I'd agree that "security" as in "financial prowess" can increase a person's attractivity - I'd even say more so in men than in women and I don't know why - but I would not class that under "beauty".
"Finding that guy who wants a confident person for her own sake and not based on how that reflects on him: priceless."
Do you really have the feeling that men are generally mostly attracted to beauty so they can brag about their conquest, not because they are attracted to beauty (constant-wise and culturally defined)?
Trackback:
See my friends!
Tobias:
confused, where did I say I classed "security" under "beauty" for men? That's kind of my point. It's a substitute.
"Do you really have the feeling that men are generally mostly attracted to beauty so they can brag about their conquest, not because they are attracted to beauty (constant-wise and culturally defined)?"
My context was men's attraction to confident women. I think sometimes this is indeed about "look at the spirited filly I managed to rope!" and sometimes it's for its own sake.
I wasn't really making that point about beauty, per se. My point there is that were men allowed to lower their guard on monopolizing the "security" aspect of things, they will likely find other characteristics besides "beauty" beautiful.
Machina – good points. Some women do have money/power. And I’d also argue that charisma, wit and creativity can operate in similar ways.
But why are these characteristics not used as much in the social context?
I don’t think we’ve reached that tipping point yet where there is enough of a balance of money/power/visibility in grownup spheres between men and women. I think if we get there, resistance to a woman buying or a man being bought drinks, or being less professionally-senior partner as a man, will not have the stigma it does now.
I’m married and only buy one dude drinks anymore, but if I were single my calculus would go like this. Let’s say I’m in a bar with a couple of girlfriends. I see a hot guy. Do I have the bartender bring him a drink? Now, I’ve done this in my 20s when I had no money or prestige. At this point, I would absolutely not do it. Because whose socially-perceived dick is bigger may actually be in dispute, and I don’t want him impotently retreating any sooner than absolutely necessary. I would give him a quick glance that would tell him what he needed to know, and let him send me the drink and pay for the first date. Then I’d pay for the second. No point in hiding forever.
But let’s say the balance of men and women across income levels in active/visible/security-providing roles were closer to even. I’d settle for 35-40%. I’d certainly buy that drink. He’d be more likely to find that attractive and also not to worry that I’d hold it against him.
You’re absolutely right. Coldhardcash is a strong force in maintaining valuation. Until there’s equilibrium, or close, in that regard, those who have the hold on it, or on the characteristics that are perceived to lead to it, will have an advantage in being perceived as sexy in ways other than the purely physical. Those who do not have coldhardcash leverage will need to rely on the tried and true T&A stuff, which is more vulnerable to age.
So I don’t know that if I agree that “[m]oral of the story: if women really want equality, they've got to give [you] beer.” I think instead that the moral of the story is, if women want equality, we need to get our hands on the coldhardcash and power and demonstrate market share. Then we will not only have the power to buy the beer if/when we wish to do so, but the ability to realize the benefit.
if women want equality, we need to get our hands on the coldhardcash and power and demonstrate market share. Then we will not only have the power to buy the beer if/when we wish to do so, but the ability to realize the benefit.
I believe the root of womens oppression is in the patriarchal family. It is where we first learn about gender hierarchy and oppression. Women have access to more money in a economic system that is at it root corrupt and exploitative will not answer the problem of inequality. We are poor not because we exchange but because of the mood of exchange. Consider that womens labor in the household makes up the majority of the "hidden economy". Until women are paid for this service we will always be poor. Work that is traditional done by women us not valued because it generally speaking does not produce a product that can be sold on the open market and yet society is completely dependent on it.
Renee – I understand but I think there’s a chicken and egg problem. Women will not have the leverage to insist on pay for household/childcare tasks without fundamental change in the percentages of women vs men who are working outside the house. Even then, for the reasons you state it may not be doable. Society is dependent on it, but the value it immediately creates is within the family.
Therefore, the ONLY way women will gain more power is outside the household. I disagree that “women having access to more money in a economic system that is at it root corrupt and exploitative will not answer the problem of inequality.” It will address the problem of gender inequality. Across all income brackets. A friend of mine who is an immigrant from Guatemala gained power vis a vis her husband, who cleans pools, when she set up a team of women to do night nursing. She is now the higher earner of the two and has more clout accordingly. (She mentioned the other day that it seems these days he is also nagging her less about her weight – I think this ties in a bit with the discussion here.) It will not, I agree, solve the problem of income inequality between different income groups. But that’s not what I’m dealing with here.
Why, when the topic is women’s equality, do the stakes suddenly become “solve world hunger, or it’s not an answer?”
I sympathize with the desire to remedy the income gap and resulting injustice. But I do not think women should have to wait for our economy to be revolutionized to gain equality. Let’s face it, when is that going to happen? I’d like to see some changes in the here and now for women. If we get our hands on more $/power, that WILL happen.
Anyone who claims this is a privileged white woman solution, I beg to differ. I counsel young high school girls from troubled neighborhoods and I tell them the same old stuff that I bore people here with, and you know what, if a few of them who’ve taken me up on free SAT tutoring actually go and get their engineering degrees on scholarship instead of going somewhere else and getting their MRS degrees, then they will have more power, more ability to call their shots, and more ability to trade on assets other than youth and (mainstream) beauty. I'm not going to tell them that's not an answer because hey, we haven't conquered world hunger, and I hope nobody else does either.
Octo,
"confused, where did I say I classed "security" under "beauty" for men? That's kind of my point. It's a substitute."
I read it that way, cool then.
"My point there is that were men allowed to lower their guard on monopolizing the "security" aspect of things, they will likely find other characteristics besides "beauty" beautiful."
Probably, it would also be a scarcity issue, wouldn't it?
My point is, I think you're overestimating the importance of male choice for social development and underestimating the extent of female choice and male reaction to it. But then, I may not be entirely objective in this matter ;)
So - assuming that procreation is indeed the fundamental subconscious motivational device for humans that I think it is - currently - men get privileged access to reproductive resources by having more "status" because individual women decide that it makes more sense to mate them than others as they offer (however socially influenced) indicators of favorable genes.
Maybe a good question in this context would be to which extent competing for public "status" increases women's access to favourable reproductive resources. It certainly does to some extent - education, etc., but maybe the "optimum" investment in "status" is indeed different for women as long as attraction and mating are as they are?
I stand by my opinion that women would run the planet entirely and rather quickly, if they could make a collective decision to only mate with men without aggression, status and competitive drive. By choosing slackers and not achievers. Why don't they do it? Because they apparently don't want their offspring to have those qualities. But by choosing the men with aggression, status, and drive, they also, in my opinion, ensure the continuation of public male competition.
“My point is, I think you're overestimating the importance of male choice for social development and underestimating the extent of female choice and male reaction to it. But then, I may not be entirely objective in this matter ;)”
Both are important. But with a more equal active/provider vs passive/receiver profile, both would make, and therefore react to, different choices than we see now.
“Why don't they do it? Because they apparently don't want their offspring to have those qualities. But by choosing the men with aggression, status, and drive, they also, in my opinion, ensure the continuation of public male competition.”
Women do not choose older, many times less attractive, successful men because they wish their children to look or even act like Woody Allen or Bill Gates or Donald Trump rather than, say, the young, smart, athletic gym teacher. They do it for security. Were the security distribution equal, these choices would change.
My husband now has a good job, but at the time I chose him he was unemployed. I was coincidentally working with a woman at that time who had met and rejected him for exactly that reason. This did not mean that either I or she viewed him as unaggressive or lazy. He simply was not the choice many women looking for security would have made.
On the contrary, he did (and does) have many characteristics desirable in offspring. He is tall, somehow able to have a flat stomach without having to do situps the way the rest of us have to slog through, feminist, brilliant, empathetic, confident enough in himself to want a woman who won’t take shit (see “feminist”) and for the shallow set (hi) super hot.
So I do not see the current prevalence of Trumpian choices to indicate a universal female view as to favorable genes or an indication of inevitable continuation of public male competition. Instead, with a balance of security resources, women would be free to choose characteristics that are often much more important to pass along to offspring than financial aggressiveness, not to mention financial luck or privilege.
My husband and I were both at one point litigators – a field we had both left by the time we met. He because he’d realized that one had to be (to some degree) an asshole to be a successful litigator. And he wasn’t. That was not a limiting factor in my case, but I was unwilling to jump through the puppetlike hoops that one has to jump through to make it out of associate hell.
I have always been glad that he was not willing to exhibit aggressiveness for the sake of a goal he didn’t prioritize, and have never viewed him as less of a genetic hero for his economic vulnerability at the time we met. I don’t think it would have served my daughter well to have her genetic makeup feed from more than one parent for whom banging people’s heads together to get attention or results is a casual sporting activity.
So I do not see male competition for economic status, or female competition for males with economic status, as inevitable factors that will not be susceptible to a gender balance.
"Women do not choose older, many times less attractive, successful men because they wish their children to look or even act like Woody Allen or Bill Gates or Donald Trump rather than, say, the young, smart, athletic gym teacher. They do it for security. Were the security distribution equal, these choices would change."
This is an excellent point.
There are also women like me, who have plenty of status, security, and power to spare, but still choose older men over the hot young gym teacher. In my case it's all about who behaves respectfully, and lately that's older men, not younger ones.
As Octogalore said, when you change the security distribution, you change how choices get evaluated.
I sympathize with the desire to remedy the income gap and resulting injustice. But I do not think women should have to wait for our economy to be revolutionized to gain equality.
It's called a social revolution. The sooner people stop sympathizing with the bourgeoisie class the better. If we don't address the issue in a macro format we can never hope to deal with the totality of inequality. Change happens through protest we need to make the demand known.
I counsel young high school girls from troubled neighborhoods and I tell them the same old stuff that I bore people here with, and you know what, if a few of them who’ve taken me up on free SAT tutoring actually go and get their engineering degrees on scholarship instead of going somewhere else and getting their MRS degrees
Thats great except that it does not take into account not everyone is meant to go to university. What about the people who have different skill sets? What about valuing motherhood as an occupation? It also produces for society.
Renee: "That's great except that it does not take into account not everyone is meant to go to university. What about the people who have different skill sets? What about valuing motherhood as an occupation? It also produces for society."
Renee -- I agree. Since my gig is counseling for my undergrad, which is an engineering school, it focuses around kids who are interested in that. (I've asked to be focused around low-income areas.) I didn't mean to suggest everyone is or should be interested in college or engineering.
People with different skill sets, girls and boys, should certainly do what makes most sense. What I don't agree with is any conclusion that girls are less likely to be "meant" to go to college. I know you didn't say that -- just want to be clear.
I have no issues with girls/boys doing anything they want, including focusing on parenting. I'd just like to see the parenting focus be closer to equal between the genders. Because we all know it'll be a long time holding our breaths before it gets monetarily compensated, despite its value.
Helen -- great point. The evaluation may still result in choices similar to those made now, but for different reasons. And when there's more critical mass of women with more ability to make such choices, I think the respect levels may change as well.
Octo,
Let's say power is latent in individuals and exercised in relationships. The way that women exercise the power that they have *currently* doesn't tend to change the way that women are percieved.
That may change if women form a greater fraction of the professional workforce, as there are social views that depend on it. But my point is that it may not, as women mightn't exercise that power in relationships. Or, that money only equals power if you're prepared to buy the power.
Octo,
"Women do not choose older, many times less attractive, successful men because they wish their children to look or even act like Woody Allen or Bill Gates or Donald Trump rather than, say, the young, smart, athletic gym teacher. They do it for security. Were the security distribution equal, these choices would change. ... So I do not see male competition for economic status, or female competition for males with economic status, as inevitable factors that will not be susceptible to a gender balance."
Well, nothing is inevitable/impossible over an evolutionary timespan. Humans developed the way they did because of the circumstances to which they had to adapt. If those circumstances change fundamentally and for long enough to not just influence the cultural incentives, then, sure, we might see completely different behaviour than we can see today. Until then, I think it will be interesting to monitor to which extent the increasing success of women in the "public status competition" will change their mating choices. Will they "date down" - so far there seems to be no evidence of that. But it's probably too early. How will social "status emulation technology" (eg the pickup thing we discussed last year) affect this? Maybe it will allow women de facto "dating down" tricking their own biological selection criteria?
Still, there's one thing that won't change, unless technology or evolution changes the way humans procreate: Ovaries are the more valuable reproductive resource, and the scarcity ratio and different (biological) cost structures caused by pregnancy and procreation - and that means (except in rare environments where men are the scarce resource): in humans, females choose, males compete to be chosen.
"I'd just like to see the parenting focus be closer to equal between the genders. Because we all know it'll be a long time holding our breaths before it gets monetarily compensated, despite its value."
As much as I think it's desirable and also desired by most modern men to participate much more in parenting than has long been the case, I think "equal" is a problematic word in this context - the relationship of mothers to their childs will always be different from the relationship of fathers to their child. Parenting roles also have a biological element in them. I'm not saying that fathers can't have as much of a bond (or more of a bond) with their kids as mothers or spend as much or even more time with them, but it will necessarily be different - and thus probably cause different social expressions.
Machine: “But my point is that it may not, as women mightn't exercise that power in relationships.”
Why don’t you think this will happen?
Tobias: “Still, there's one thing that won't change, unless technology or evolution changes the way humans procreate: Ovaries are the more valuable reproductive resource…”
That's already happened. Egg freezing is a relatively easy way to delay the biological clock and therefore change how humans procreate. Only thing we’d need is universal health care to defray the cost.
“As much as I think it's desirable and also desired by most modern men to participate much more in parenting than has long been the case, I think ‘equal’ is a problematic word in this context”
Um, that’s why I said “closer to equal.”
But I really think it can be pretty damn close. As you said, fathers can have the same kind of bond, and although the relationship may be different, it’s no less legitimate or important.
Tobias said, "As much as I think it's desirable and also desired by most modern men to participate much more in parenting than has long been the case, I think "equal" is a problematic word in this context - the relationship of mothers to their childs will always be different from the relationship of fathers to their child. Parenting roles also have a biological element in them. I'm not saying that fathers can't have as much of a bond (or more of a bond) with their kids as mothers or spend as much or even more time with them, but it will necessarily be different - and thus probably cause different social expressions."
I think that commentary only holds true if you accept essentialist understanding of gender. We teach children to associate a certain behavior with gender. When they are born they seek out one person to take care of them period. They bond with the one that spends the most time taking care of their needs. If both mother and father parent in a similar fashion and perform household tasks equally the child will not associate any special gender difference until they are exposed to it by the outside world.
Renee: word.
I and MrO have a balance but I'm the one my daughter sees working more mostly because I work from home. (Also because my job's contingency-related and his is salary, he has less incentive to be obsessive about it).
She told me the other day that she is going to marry "Hank" at her school (he is 4) because he makes good oatmeal raisin cookies for when she comes home from work.
I'm still waiting for her to ask stuff like why are there no women's faces on coins. Maybe by the time she does, there will be.
Hey Octo,
"Why don’t you think this will happen?"
It may happen, if there is a tipping point sort of change like you point out. But if there's not that sort of change, and the current trends continue, then things will stay much the same as they are now.
When I said coldhardcash maintains the way men and women are valued, I didn't mean that in the context of the cash earned, but in the way cash is spent. There's not the same imperative, in the current social context, for women to spend their hard earned on men. I think, even if women form 35-40% of the professional workforce, that income may still be seen as supplentary to what their older, professionally-senior husband earns.
Ultimately, I think many women would rather their husbands make as much or more than them, and ignoring the social context, simply because that improves their standard of living. A tipping point will only occur if finding those men is very difficult, and professional women 'settle' for a man with less earning potential.
Octo,
"That's already happened. Egg freezing is a relatively easy way to delay the biological clock and therefore change how humans procreate. Only thing we’d need is universal health care to defray the cost."
Well, I was thinking of something more fundamental, like cloning, but you're right, this will probably change things a little (even frozen eggs need a non-frozen "incubator").
Renee,
"I think that commentary only holds true if you accept essentialist understanding of gender. We teach children to associate a certain behavior with gender. When they are born they seek out one person to take care of them period. ..."
Well, I early childhood psychology/development is, in my opinion, a subject where the debate is usually based much more on opinions/interests than on facts.
Do I believe that one parent, male or female, can raise a child on their own? Sure. Do I believe that a father's bond to the child can be equally intense and legitimate as the mother's? Sure. Do I think it will be different? Yes I do. A mother is a child's mother and has carried the child in her for nine months, a father hasn't. That's a pretty important difference. Men and women, males and females, offer different viewpoints to life, different emotional responses, and yes, these differences are essential to the extent that they are influenced by the parent's SEX, not its gender. Gendered behaviour will be different and difficult to change, too, but it's - in a theoretical sense - not "essential". I mean, why are there so many complaints about the "lack of true father figures" these days if mothers could just as easily help kids see the male perspective?
"If both mother and father parent in a similar fashion and perform household tasks equally the child will not associate any special gender difference until they are exposed to it by the outside world."
Sure. But if you're concerned about identifying household work with gender then we were talking past each other. That's not the level of behaviour I was thinking of...
machina: I'm not so sure. If the percentages of involvement in the earning arenas change, I think the social context and subsequent spending patterns will change too.
Personally, as someone whose older husband is the supplementary income in our household, without any kind of affect (maybe a positive one) on his self esteem/virility or on my perception of having "settled," I don't see this as a phenomenon that could not work. I don't think we're an isolated example, either.
"simply because that improves their standard of living."
Sure, but if the woman is already doing great, then "improving standard of living" doesn't have to rise to the level it does now. Men have other things to offer -- al least, some do.
"A tipping point will only occur if finding those men is very difficult"
With more women at the tilling oar, it will become more difficult to find men who are willing to put their family lives on hold (because they have more options in terms of women who share the professional responsibility).
"and professional women 'settle' for a man with less earning potential"
I would have considered myself to have "settled" if I'd gone for the various boring investment bankers and bad boy internet VPs with megastockoptions I'd contemplated back in the day.
Octo,
"I don't see this as a phenomenon that could not work. I don't think we're an isolated example, either."
That's great - I think that's what's decisive: female attraction to males if "she earns more". I recently saw an article about "mainaining masculinity when she earns more" in a journal called "sex roles". Probably should look that up again.
"I would have considered myself to have "settled" if I'd gone for the various boring investment bankers and bad boy internet VPs with megastockoptions I'd contemplated back in the day."
Again. If female attraction to men and male competition for female resources can work without the kind of public realm we're used to see for this then great. I'm just not entirely convinced it can. Still, redefining masculinity in this context, it seems to me, is more important than a lot of other things on the gender battlefield - but relatively few people are concerned about this (again, as a sidenote, this is precisely where I think the male self-improvement pickup movement is truly complementing feminism - well, what I think is your kind of feminism - in that it's concerned with DIRECT attraction and not indirect attraction. It's shifting the locus of the competition outside the security realm.).
Coming in late to this thread, but here goes:
When it comes to attraction of the (for lack of a better term) mainstream variety vs. individual perspective---whoa, there's a steamer trunk of baggage hiding under that. (kinda related to the last post, in fact). The mainstream perspective is indelibly related to what is vogue in the mass media, and by who controls the power to what appears in that media. And let's face it: when it comes to the mainstream, blondes still have a huge advantage over the rest of us. Just like men with wrinkles (even deep, craggy wrinkles) are assumed to be more "youthful" appearing than women of the same age (or even older) without the wrinkles, those who meet (or come close to) anglo-saxon beauty standards are going to fit that mainstream (often referred to as "objective") standard and thus deemed "better looking". Not that that's your perspective, Octo (I think I know better than that!), but it can and does color who is "attractive". There's more going on than literally what meets the eye, and part of the reason people are more willing to abandon that mainstream perspective as they age is the decolonization of the mind that is part and parcel of aging (well, for those of us who actually like growing up).
Frankly, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of women being schooled to view other characteristics as attractive (which dovetails perfectly with our own hypercritiques of ourselves that we're also schooled in); I also agree that the more women have their own forms of security, the more women will choose mates for reasons other than security. I already see this dynamic a lot in my union hall; almost all the married men younger than 40 are married to women who make as much or more than they do. I've always looked to myself for security, because I can. If that's the only thing a man can provide, I'm not interested. He has to have the kind of qualities money just can't buy.
However, I noticed one thing that wasn't mentioned---the burden of having the "trophy" spouse. There's a reason women aren't too eager to date "slackers", and it has nothing to do with materialism and everything to do with precious free time. I'm raising a daughter; I sure the hell am not about the business of raising another adult, no matter how good-looking he is. Not even if I won the lottery. That men can indulge the Pygmalion illusion is another function of disparity---the lack of a second shift. That is, until they've taken that fairy tale to heart. I've known several men who've lived to regret playing the handsome prince to someone else's Sleeping Beauty.
La Lubu -- the burden of a trophy spouse and the implications for feminism of ability to operate as Sleeping Beauty are critical points. Hope you don't mind I cribbed this for the next post!
Not at all! Been busy this past week and weekend...too busy to blog myself, but seldom too busy to comment!
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