In her mid-twenties she met a man who was separated and married him upon his divorce. There is speculation about how he treated his first wife during this, but insiders say he was the pursuer and it was clear to them the first marriage was over. Friends and family blame the man for his behavior towards the first wife, but state that the second wife was not to blame.
She had a few miscarriages and finally gave birth to three children in her late twenties – early thirties, having moved back to Arizona while her husband was often in Washington.
Instead of the fancy vacations that her family income could provide, she chose to visit places like Chuuk. Noticing the poor medical facilities in such areas, she founded the American Voluntary Medical Team, a non-profit organization that set up trips for doctors, nurses, and other medical personnel to supply treatment to poor sick children and provide emergency medical care to disaster-struck third-world areas such as Micronesia, Vietnam, Kuwait (arriving five days after the conclusion of the Gulf War), Iraq, Nicaragua, India, Bangladesh and El Salvador. Instead of delegating others to actually go to these places, she led 55 of these missions over the next seven years. Each trip lasted over two weeks.
While at Mother Teresa's orphanage in Dhaka, Bangladesh, in 1991 as part of AVMT's assistance team following the 1991 Bangladesh cyclone, she met two infant girls you determine need to be brought to the United States for medical treatment. She decided to adopt one of the girls and coordinate the adoption of the other little girl, with another family.
In the late 80s she underwent two spinal surgeries, began taking Percocet and Vicodin, and became addicted, sometimes taking as many as twenty Percocets a day. Unfortunately, with painkiller addiction, social withdrawal, going to great lengths to obtain prescriptions and changes in personality are frequent symptoms, and were among those she dealt with. She began stealing the drugs from AVMT. Of course, arguably she was stealing from her own self-funded non-profit, but it was still stealing.
Through an intervention by her parents, drug treatment, and ultimately a hysterectomy for the back pain, she was able to resolve the addiction and pain issues.
She made full restitution to AVMT. It was speculated that had she been poor or not married to a US Senator, she would have been locked up. Others commented that addiction is a disease with both a social and medical component, and that often harmful actions occur before help is gotten. One can blame people for benefiting from social circumstances, or fight for all individuals suffering from addiction to get the same access to treatment.
One might also note that other, including current, presidential candidates and presidents have had drug and other issues for which they have not served time, and that there is a name for choosing a woman as the example for the person who should do so.
In 1995, she founded the Hensley Family Foundation, which donates monies towards children's programs in Arizona and nationally. She became actively involved with Operation Smile, which provides cleft lip and palate repair surgeries to children worldwide and assists countries in reaching self-sufficiency with these surgeries, in 2001, taking parts in trips with it to Morocco, Vietnam, and India. She was honored by the organization in 2005 and has visited operations to remove landmines in Cambodia, Sri Lanka, Mozambique, and Angola.
Although active in her husband’s presidential campaign in 2007-08, she often interrupted campaigning for overseas charitable work.
In April of this year, four years after a stroke, she visited the Albanian border where she visited schools where children’s sports fields are covered with unexploded bombs. On another trip, she witnessed a boy get blown up by a mine in Kuwait. She next plans a trip to Afghanistan, a central front in the effort to remove land mines, and a visit to Darfur to try to aid the refugees and bring attention to the mass killings and rapes.
A typical article on Cindy McCain has soundbites like this:
“Cindy McCain does not appear to be a Laura Bush in waiting. She was once addicted to painkillers. She is an heiress to a beer distribution fortune, a gilded, glamorous child of the air-conditioned south-west.”
Or like this:
“Cindy's neurotic blonde do”
“CNN correspondent Carol Costello compared Cindy McCain to a 'Stepford Wife'" due to her low key role in her husband’s campaign so far.
Why not? It’s easy. Cindy’s a Republican, a skinny blonde, an heiress. She might as well be dancing on tables and dating a succession of pop stars; we basically don’t need any more information. We don’t like her husband’s policies, she’s a pretty easy person to try and convict without going through the rigmarole of any kind of inspection of, maybe, the facts.
A friend recently said:
“Surely if it's to mean anything we have to stand up not only for women who we like and feel are on our side, but women we don't like who are still nonetheless the victims of sexism. The coverage of Cindy McCain has been horribly sexist in the past, and I have a feeling it's going to get a lot worse in the run-up to the election. Does she really not deserve to be defended just because we don't like her husband? Is she not a woman?”
Has Cindy McCain made mistakes? Of course. I have not battled addiction, and I don’t judge her for her past difficulties. I don’t judge Senator Obama for his drug use in his youth, which did not stem from physical pain killing, as I think much drug use does have to do with some kind of pain killing. It is clear to me that despite her sins of being blonde and rich, Cindy McCain chose at a number of points in her life to avoid an easier path, and to put herself at risk to help kids in developing countries.
I could write the same kind of thing for Michelle Obama. Along the lines of what michelleobamawatch.com is doing. But I think that is Feminist Analysis 101 and I’ve always found 101 boring. There are a ton of people who need it, but I don’t think any of them are here. Michelle is smart, beautiful, blunt (while I don’t love everything she says, I will defend to the death her right to say it), successful and polished. She has gone and will go far, and I think everyone who has passed 101 (which I think is true of my small readership) gets all this.
I’m not so sure it’s as easy to get it when the packaging is less sympathetic. Less politically compatible and with a storyline that doesn’t follow the path that we feel is necessary for our feminist buttons to be pushed.
Well, I think 202, or maybe it’s 306, is about looking past the storyline and maybe trying to figure out if feminism is about more than just reflexively having certain women’s backs. It’s also about spotting any antifeminism and calling it out.
Well, but: oh boo hoo, rich white blond girl doesn’t need us to stand up for her. And let’s face it. Writing posts decrying treatment of rich white blond women isn’t going to win any popularity contests in the feminist blogosphere.
But that’s the point. If feminism is only about the sympathetic victim of anti-feminism, it’s not feminism, but presenting for the antifeminists a soundbite they can get behind, only to spew the same crap on other occasions, when they know other women, and some feminists, will back them up.
Now, it should be a given that our activism should prioritize those most in need. Feminism cannot leave any women behind. It not only cannot assume that a top-down approach will cover all women, but must aggressively emphasize and participate in bottom-up activities. Defending privileged women does not mean prioritizing them within the movement.
But IMO, feminism cannot tell women – once you’re at a certain point, seeya. You don’t count anymore. Women can be helped from a victim role, but we don’t need to be defended once we’re successful or trying to be, because that’s just tacky and selfish.
Feminism needs to have the courage of its convictions – women are equal. Whatever your situation, you should be not be treated differently based on gender. There is no class of women who needs to wear hairshirts and suck it up just because, if similarly situated men don’t. Because once you go there, you’re saying women really aren’t equal. And if we’re signaling that we’re selectively OK with that message being out there, then that clarifies that we’re really not sure of our footing. We’ll fight in an attractive ring, in a way that affirms our reputation as helpers. We’re not going to fight those fights that make us look aggressive or pushy.
That tells our opponents all they need to know. We don’t really have the courage of our convictions. And that compromises our whole message, and our efforts at all levels.
Nope. I was a shy geek oddball in elementary school, a geek brain outcast in high school, a slut (at that point I hid my GPA) freak in college, a contrary slacker rebel in law school. I would pipe up at law firm dinners to ask why female clients' appearance was critiqued. I would also pipe up at public interest meetings and encourage women to invest and occasionally take "working for the man" jobs where it made sense. I like too much of Ariel Levy to be uniformly blessed by the sex positives and I've done way too many lap dances, and supported other women's decisions to do that or more, to be adored by their opponents. I'm that nail sticking out that each stroke of the hammer just manages to push a little more out of joint. I’ve long since given up winning any popularity contests. I don’t mind being the person who says the unpopular thing because I think it’s actually important for all the reasons the popular things are. And maybe others too.
114 comments:
LOVE this post, Octo! You constantly awe me with your insightful, eloquent writing.
I don't like Cindy McCain's politics, so I don't like her or her wretched husband. The fact that he went through what he went through and can still support the use of torture is both horrifying and telling.
Women in the public eye will be vilified. Too fat, too thin, too rich, too blond, too not blond, ugly, pretty, poor, loud, quiet, nice, mean, etc. ad infinitum.
I'm not quite sure what the point of this post is. Liberals can be sexist scum too? Yup. Cindy McCain is GREAT? No. I am happy to look at her as I look at all conservative Republicans - as war criminals who should rot in hell. If I believed in hell, which I don't.
She made full restitution to AVMT. It was speculated that had she been poor or not married to a US Senator, she would have been locked up. Others commented that addiction is a disease with both a social and medical component, and that often harmful actions occur before help is gotten. One can blame people for benefiting from social circumstances, or fight for all individuals suffering from addiction to get the same access to treatment.
One might also note that other, including current, presidential candidates and presidents have had drug and other issues for which they have not served time, and that there is a name for choosing a woman as the example for the person who should do so.
Except that McCain and other conservatives are proponents of the war on drugs and a "lock 'em up and throw away the key" philosophy, except when it comes to THEIR drug addicts. Poor girls go to jail, Noelle Bush and Cindy McCain get understanding and "please respect our family's privacy at this difficult time." Obama stands for compassionate treatment of addicts, all of them, even the poor ones. That is the difference.
Is this Obama bashing? McCain supporting? Either way, not working for me.
dig it, octo, I dig it. Like her politics, her husbands politics, whatever, she's a human being and deserves to be treated like one.
Thanks, Amber and Ren.
SMMO, if you are reading this as a defense of John McCain's politics or some attempt to compare McCain's and Obama's drug policies, then you're pretty much 180 degrees away from the point here.
Feminism is about standing up for women, all women, I agree. I do struggle with standing up for a woman who as First Lady would be part of implementing anti-women policies, but gotta do it anyway. Pretty far down on my list though. Really far down. Somewhere below "check out Laura Bush's chili recipe" and "what is Phyllis Schlafly up to these days?"
But you lost me on the drug thing. Until I see evidence that CMcC is fighting "for all individuals suffering from addiction to get the same access to treatment" then I call bullshit. I have absolutely no personal issue with people who struggle with drugs. I will rebut anyone who criticizes her for being an addict, or for her stupid hair. I just hate the hypocrisy of conservatives who have put millions in jail but break out the compassion when it is one of their own.
I mean, McCain even opposes medical marijuana. What a tool
Feminism is about standing up for women, all women, I agree. I do struggle with standing up for a woman who as First Lady would be part of implementing anti-women policies, but gotta do it anyway. Pretty far down on my list though. Really far down. Somewhere below "check out Laura Bush's chili recipe" and "what is Phyllis Schlafly up to these days?"
I think you're still missing the point. I didn't read this post as a defense of Cindy McCain, or really anything specific to her at all - she was an example, of which there are countless others. The point I got was, it's not okay to vilify women based on some perceived stereotypical external traits that we really know jack shit about. If we talk shit about a woman for being blonde and thin, we're no better than the assholes we call out for talking shit about a woman being the opposite.
SMMO -- if I had a chance to have a drink with one of these women, it would be no contest. If I were given the chance for one of them to be given a place in a Feminist Role Models guide, it would be no contest.
The reason I wrote this because of exactly what you said: "I do struggle with standing up for a woman who as First Lady would be part of implementing anti-women policies..."
As I said in the post, feminism needs to be airtight to really work. We show weakness when we allow some of us -- those who don't have the right policies (do we know whether CMcC is anti-choice, BTW?), or looks or whatever -- to be fall gals, 'cause really, who can be bothered?
The message is: we're not equal, not deserving of equal respect, because we're women. We're deserving of respect only when we are sympathetic. Only when we make you like us or feel sorry for us. Then you do it and it salves your ego, and it makes you feel all progressive and hip.
But don't worry, guys. We're not going to ask you to really, fully buy in. Especially where you get no liberal brownie points. Hey, and we'll actually join in! She DOES have "stupid hair!"
****
And re losing you on the drug thing? Why would you need to see evidence of CMcC's drug policies? Isn't it innocent until proven guilty? Laura Bush is clearly on the opposite side of W on a number of issues, do you assume Cindy and John are linked at the hip? (In fact, while I am no fan of John's by a long shot, in fairness here he is on drug treatment for first time offenders: "McCain [then] went on to say he supports a program in Arizona that gives first-time offenders a treatment option. McCain said such a program should be implemented nationally.'We have too many first-time drug offenders in prison," he repeated.")
So why do we need her to prove she doesn't support something we have no evidence she supports before we'll treat her fairly?
It is also unclear to me where Obama stands on drug treatment for first time offenders.
I'll end by quoting Pastor Martin Niemöller on why it's important to stand up for those with whom we don't identify:
"First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me."
One further thought. The only relevance of CMcC's drug policy ideas was if I was defending her on policy lines. As Amber says, I'm not. I don't have the information to do that. And if anyone does have information on her being willing to extend a different standard to others than the one she got, then by all means, she should not be immune from criticism on that point. Fire away.
But even if we DID prove that her policies were not egalitarian, which to me is unclear at this point, it STILL doesn't give us license to call her a Barbie or "stupid hair" or Stepford.
Because that license can be extended, and guess what? Maybe even so that it affects us. And others like us. And others who are less privileged than we are. And so on.
But even if we DID prove that her policies were not egalitarian, which to me is unclear at this point, it STILL doesn't give us license to call her a Barbie or "stupid hair" or Stepford.
And this is REALLY Feminism 101. How many of us have lamented the seeming inability of men to argue with us based on our views, and not bring our looks into it? Surely we've all noticed that attacks on a woman's looks are de rigeur when one disagrees with her. We need to lead by example. You can absolutely HATE a woman's position on certain issues, hell, her entire philosophy on LIFE - but that does not give you license to attack her looks. I cannot stand Ann Coulter - I think she's a hateful person. But you'll never hear me making cracks about her looks. Unfortunately the same can't be said for other self-identified progressives. ("Man Coulter," anyone?)
Now, it should be a given that our activism should prioritize those most in need. Feminism cannot leave any women behind. It not only cannot assume that a top-down approach will cover all women, but must aggressively emphasize and participate in bottom-up activities. Defending privileged women does not mean prioritizing them within the movement.
But IMO, feminism cannot tell women – once you’re at a certain point, seeya. You don’t count anymore.
Well done, Octo.
More and more, I find myself staying in and around feminism for others. Trying to find the tools to craft an understanding of feminism for women who don't give a fuck about feminism. This post kind of hits on that.
But IMO, feminism cannot tell women – once you’re at a certain point, seeya. You don’t count anymore.
I agree. And still, I struggle with that. My knee-jerk reaction is defensive---I have to work on that. I remind myself of the structural causes of a lot of that agita. Men have institutions where different social classes can meet on an equal footing. We don't. Men have formal and informal mentoring options; for the most part, we don't. That has to change.
Thanks, Latoya! I am curious, why for others?
LaLubu - I agree, I think that distinction is one of the reasons women have various resentments in larger degrees than men. There is also a sense that success (or inheritance even when combined with doing some good with it) is selling out, whereas men (at least from what I hear, see and read) don't seem to feel that way.
I think the desire of women to help (at all levels -- eg in law, one finds more women in employment or divorce law vs corporate) is a great thing. But the sense that certain women are beyond compassion and that it kind of should be that way -- which is shared by both women and men about other women and less so about men -- less so.
AMAZING post.
Once again, you teach me something. I was focused away from Cindy McCain, like most people, to the point of -yes, I'll admit it- thinking that the stereotype about her was actually accurate. She was just some dumb rich chick McCain married.
And I thought I was sensitive to these things!
There's another way that the treatment of Cindy McCain is sexist. She is judged according to the political leaning of her husband. He's a Republican, therefore a stud, and therefore she must be a dumb blonde. Compare this to the sexist treatment of Michelle: Her husband is a "liberal," therefore a "pussy" and therefore she must be a castrating bitch.
So the woman loses, but never on her own merits, only according to his husband's perceived (also sexism) predilections.
There needs to be a Cindy sexism watch. Interestingly, there isn't one. Trust you to note the subtle and not-so-subtle ways in which the feminist blogosphere is failing to get it.
Thanks for writing this post. I'll be linking, when I get around to blogging again...insanely busy.
Thanks, A!
It's only recently that my reaction to CMcC or someone with that resume hasn't been exactly what you described.
The fact that there isn't and never could be a Cindy sexism watch is part of what prompted this. Whoever attempted one would need a gas mask to keep out the flames.
Missing your blogging!
Wow, O : wonderful piece.
In particular: "But IMO, feminism cannot tell women – once you’re at a certain point, seeya. You don’t count anymore. Women can be helped from a victim role, but we don’t need to be defended once we’re successful or trying to be, because that’s just tacky and selfish"
THIS IS BRILLIANT.
And "As I said in the post, feminism needs to be airtight to really work. We show weakness when we allow some of us -- those who don't have the right policies ...or looks or whatever -- to be fall gals, 'cause really, who can be bothered?"
I'm so glad you're blogging, Octo.
Your "brand" of feminism is refreshing (and a wonderful chaser for all that "How short WAS your skirt anyway? Feminism currently enjoying a spotlight in bloggyland) and the only sort I want to be a part of.
I have never understood why it's considered acceptable in feminist circles to throw some women under the bus because they're considered too patriarchy-compliant. I mean, I get the ideology behind that impulse, but the ideology doesn't work. It's still sexist, to say that some women count more than others. The language used is sexist. The ideas are sexist. You just can't dismiss some women for being the wrong sort of women and not realise how that plays into sexism.
Well, clearly you can, because lots of people do, but on a practical level you're dismantling your own argument. If sexism is wrong then it's always wrong. It doesn't become less wrong because it's directed at someone we dislike. The Ann Coulter example is a good one - I hate her ass, but it's still not OK for her to be dismissed in a sexist way, and if that happens I need to fight it, because as long as it can happen to her it can happen to any of us.
The fact that so many feminists have a knee-jerk reaction of "no but it's OK to use that language in this case because..." has always bothered me. Think, people! Follow the idea to its logical conclusion and you'll see why it doesn't work.
Thanks, Kim. Being in company with you as to brand of feminism is high praise.
Cassandra, re "The fact that so many feminists have a knee-jerk reaction of 'no but it's OK to use that language in this case because...' has always bothered me." Yes!
Sexism isn't OK when it's Coulter, racism isn't OK when it's Clarence T. Signaling to sexists/racists that it's sometimes OK lets them in on a dirty little secret -- "it" is just a convenience, not a hardcore truth. Not a secret I buy into.
Well done, Octo.
*Pout* I said the same thing two months ago. It's up to whoever's running feminism to take note. They're getting better.
Calling Ann Coulter the c-word hurts all women.
Women don't have institutions like sports, the military and Congress to bond as equals but ALL WOMEN no matter how powerful or wealthy are second class citizens. In that sense, we are equals.
We bond as women:
For what is done or learned by one class of women becomes, by virtue of their common womanhood, the property of all women. --Elizabeth Blackwell
The language used is sexist. The ideas are sexist. You just can't dismiss some women for being the wrong sort of women and not realise how that plays into sexism.
But what does that boil down to, dismissing? Is it dismissive to not write laudatory blog posts about CMcC? Is it ok if I simply ignore her? I don't want to be supportive of her because I don't share her goals. I want her husband to lose. I'm not really sure there is a supportive way to feel that.
BTW, the "stupid hair" remark was meant to mean that the discussion around her hair is stupid, not the hair itself. I don't really care about her hair.
There are lots of women I don't like. There are lots of women whose actions I disapprove of. Yeah, I judge. That doesn't make me not a feminist. I'm not even sure her looks are entirely out of bounds for discussion, as they relate to his image as "stud war hero."
One can blame people for benefiting from social circumstances, or fight for all individuals suffering from addiction to get the same access to treatment.
And is she doing this? Or backing her husband, who REFUSES to do this?
And how is he on the drug war in general? Medical marijuana?
Except that McCain and other conservatives are proponents of the war on drugs and a "lock 'em up and throw away the key" philosophy, except when it comes to THEIR drug addicts. Poor girls go to jail, Noelle Bush and Cindy McCain get understanding and "please respect our family's privacy at this difficult time." Obama stands for compassionate treatment of addicts, all of them, even the poor ones. That is the difference.
Amen. The women in MY family got their asses hauled off to jail, pronto. There was no polite family discussion and offers of rehab first.
Sorry, close but no cigar.
And let me add something else: She acts half-comatose now, which is undoubtedly why people keep bringing it up. My daughter met her in 1996 (?) (approx) and she was lively, animated and talkative (video exists somewhere, proving this fact; it isn't just second-hand). NOW, she acts like a drugged zombie. The ex-addict in me sees Kitty Dukakis redux; a political wife sleepwalking through a difficult and personally-trying presidential campaign (with a detached husband too busy to notice, as claims John McCain did not notice her addiction the first time) and I call RELAPSE. IMHO, of course, but I'm usually right about these things.
SMMO, if you are reading this as a defense of John McCain's politics or some attempt to compare McCain's and Obama's drug policies, then you're pretty much 180 degrees away from the point here.
CINDY SUPPORTS HER HUSBAND, doesn't she? I hold her 100% accountable for that. And the hubby wants to punish other addicts, while she gets off scot free? FUCK THAT.
Her Anheuser-Busch money helped elect him, with THOSE POLITICS. Her money helps him vote to drop bombs on WOMEN AND CHILDREN, which he has every intention of continuing.
I am all in agreement we should not attack women's appearance; you know that. I never do that. But I hold her as accountable as I do ANY OTHER WEALTHY REPUBLICAN who has financed the Iraq-war machine and the drug war. Which, need I remind you, OPPRESSES WOMEN TOO?????
You are asking me to go easy on her just because she is his wife? Why?
Donna -- good point, you'd think that the second-class-citizen issue would create that bond.
(Curious, how do you think the feminist leaders, whoever they are, are getting better?)
Problem is IMO that many women are conflicted, and feel that the positional differences among women are greater than the commonalities, or that there are some benefits to them from maintaining the status quo. So those things weaken the camaraderie and the bond significantly, IMO.
Is it dismissive to not write laudatory blog posts about CMcC? Is it ok if I simply ignore her? I don't want to be supportive of her because I don't share her goals.
You don't have to praise her but Octo merely stated facts. Sexism is sexism no matter who the target is. All oppression should be wiped out.
Mainstream feminist leaders are talking about intersectionality.
You spoke about internalized sexism before. Women are too invested in patriarchy to completely give it up. It's impossible just like we can't completely separate ourselves from mainstream society.
SMMO -- re "Is it dismissive to not write laudatory blog posts about CMcC? Is it ok if I simply ignore her?"
Of course. Nobody has said that's not OK. I think it's dismissive to question why someone else would want to write a post using her as an example of how antifeminism isn't OK even where its target is a blonde Repub, yeah.
I have not asked anyone to be supportive of goals of women they don't agree with or to refrain from judging the actions of women.
"I'm not even sure her looks are entirely out of bounds for discussion, as they relate to his image as 'stud war hero.'"
Since she was thin and blonde before and after she met him, I'm not sure of the relevance. If she'd altered her looks to comport with his image, maybe. That doesn't seem to be the case.
Daisy:
“And is she doing this? Or backing her husband, who REFUSES to do this?”
It would be great if she did, but again, this isn’t a referendum on her politics nor do I think her politics are a required entry price to be treated like a person.
I understand your feelings about inequitable treatment but I don’t buy the argument that this means that folks who got the long end of the stick need to be treated like shit.
Looking at the links I provided above, I’m not sure there’s a huge difference between Obama and McCain on treatment options for first-time offenders, and the links actually show McCain as more progressive on that. But that isn’t the point. If you can find evidence that Cindy (not John – Cindy) has said advocated unequal treatment, by all means pan her for it. If you can find evidence that she says she supports JMcC 100% on all of his policies or specifically w/r/t/ drugs, pan her for that. Where did I ask you or anyone to go easy on her w/r/t specific actions or beliefs?
But calling her Stepford, speculating on whether she’s a zombie-political-wife, or discussing her hair – yes, I call that what it is, and it ain’t feminist.
I have not asked anyone to be supportive of goals of women they don't agree with or to refrain from judging the actions of women.
Well, yeah, you kind of are by listing her charity work. If she was a rich woman who spent her money solely on plastic surgery and purses made of endangered animals would you have written this post?
As Daisy said, she supports her husband both symbolically and financially. That is her choice, which she is 100% responsible for. So she gives a lot to charity. Given what else she spends her money on - electing conservative Republicans - I'm not sure it's even a wash as far as doing good is concerned.
But calling her Stepford, speculating on whether she’s a zombie-political-wife,
I think the stupid, phony, soul-deadening and misogynist traditions of political wives is entirely appropriate for feminists to discuss. Calling someone a Stepford isn't so much an insult as naming her oppression.
But what does that boil down to, dismissing? Is it dismissive to not write laudatory blog posts about CMcC? Is it ok if I simply ignore her?
Seems like you're arguing against an argument Octo (nor anyone else on this thread) did not actually make. It's not about whether or not you like Cindy McCain. It's about using sexist language to refer to her (or any other woman). That's NOT OKAY no matter who the woman is. You can hate her guts, but if you start taking jabs at her looks or calling her a cunt or what-have-you, you've crossed a line into unacceptable territory.
If she supports the Republican party, she supports war criminals, starting with her husband. Period. And major points off for choice of spouse; her money DID elect him senator. Are you saying that doesn't count as her supporting his policies? Of course it does. I can't think of any other political wife recently who has contributed the kind of money Cindy McCain has to any campaign, except Teresa Heinz Kerry.
she’s a zombie-political-wife
I didn't say "zombie political wife"--you put those words together, I did not. I said ZOMBIE, which applies equally to ALL active addicts. My point about comparing her to Kitty was that emotionally, they are/were probably in the same space. Just 6 months ago, McCain was called a long shot, as Michael Dukakis was. I don't think either one of them was prepared for the rigors of the campaign. It was a secret when KD went in for treatment during the 1988 campaign, and I would not be at all surprised if the same thing happens to Cindy...and I won a bet on that back then, BTW...how much are you willing to lay on that? ;)
Are you saying she should be exempted for supporting her husband? It sounds like you are saying she is just mouthing insincere words as McCain's wife? I take her at her word that she supports him politically, especially when she has backed that up with cold hard cash, in the past AND now.
Remember: he would never be a politician AT ALL without HER money, and therefore, would not be the nominee.
If he is elected, how many more people will die because of Cindy McCain's money?
Interesting Wikipedia link you provided, Octo:
In 1989, Cindy McCain became addicted to opioid painkillers such as Percocet and Vicodin,[32] which she initially took to alleviate pain following two spinal surgeries for ruptured discs[33][34] and to ease emotional stress during the Keating Five scandal.[32] There, her role as a bookkeeper who had difficulty finding receipts for trips on Charles Keating's jet
Difficulty finding receipts, huh? Where I come from, they call that "cooking the books." I had no idea she was involved in the KF scandal personally, so thanks for another reason to think of her as slime. All those poor people's 401Ks and lifetime savings were stolen and outright pissed away, but at least they got private jet trips, that's the important thing.
During 1992, Tom Gosinski, the director of government and international affairs for AVMT, discovered her drug theft.[35] Subsequently in 1992, her parents staged an intervention to force her to get help;[15] she told her husband about her problem, attended a drug treatment facility, began outpatient sessions, and ended her three years of active addiction.[32] A hysterectomy in 1993 resolved her back pain.[32][34]
In January 1993, McCain terminated Gosinski's employment on grounds of budgetary reasons.[35] In spring 1993, Gosinski tipped off the Drug Enforcement Administration to investigate McCain's drug theft,[35] and a federal investigation ensued. McCain's defense team, led by Washington lawyer John Dowd,[35] secured an agreement with the U.S. Attorney's office that limited her punishment to financial restitution and enrollment in a diversion program, [7][35] without any public disclosure.
Meanwhile, in early 1994 Gosinski filed a wrongful termination lawsuit against McCain, which he told her he would settle for $250,000.[35] In April 1994, Dowd requested that Maricopa County officials investigate Gosinski for extortion.[35] The Phoenix New Times was about to publish a negatively-cast article about the whole affair.[35][32] Cindy McCain pre-empted this[32] by publicly revealing her past addiction, stating she hoped it would give fellow drug addicts courage in their struggles: "Although my conduct did not result in compromising any missions of AVMT, my actions were wrong, and I regret them."
1) Otherwise, we wouldn't have found out a thing and she'd still be popping pills, if she isn't already... and
2) The back pain is said (in the Wikipedia article) to be from ruptured discs, but a hysterectomy resolves it? How is that? What do ruptured discs and a hysterectomy have in common?
Excuses, is what they have in common.
Sorry, Octo, ain't buying the Bourgeois propaganda (I capitalize the word because I am lapsing into Regulation Marxism now, and I refer to The Ruling Class, not just suburban philistines with SUVs) ...every word is a lie, including the AND and the THE. I assume the philanthropy is similar Republican propaganda, covering up for something else or giving some huge tax credit.
And where is Nezua's Angelina Jolie/Madonna thread, about the sainted rich white ladies who go off internationally to save the poor, dark children? And just in time for him to run for president too!
Calling someone a Stepford isn't so much an insult as naming her oppression.
Nope, what it's doing is taking away her agency, much in the same way as this bullshit.
I do not see why this is a difficult concept.
You can hate Cindy McCain, but you cannot substitute critiques of her *looks* for critiques of her *political views* and expect the argument that sexist language is unacceptable to hold a whole hell of a lot of water elsewhere.
I didn't critique her looks, nor did I say it was ok for others to do so or to use sexist language against her.
"The Stepford Wives" is a feminist book. When I use the term I do so in a feminist context.
"Well, yeah, you kind of are by listing her charity work. If she was a rich woman who spent her money solely on plastic surgery and purses made of endangered animals would you have written this post?"
Probably. I thought her activism (because it's not just writing checks, which "charity" suggests) was interesting context, but I don't rest my argument on that.
Daisy -- I am not staking out support for CMcC's political positions. How can I be more clear about the fact that this is NOT a debate about her political ethics but about the right of all women to be treated as human beings without gendered discrimination.
It is fully in keeping with how one treats a human being to disagree, even violently, with her actions. So by all means do so!
"And where is Nezua's Angelina Jolie/Madonna thread, about the sainted rich white ladies who go off internationally to save the poor, dark children? And just in time for him to run for president too!"
I'm not sure of the relevance of this. CMcC's activism began twenty years ago.
And while I don't have much background into the situations in which Jolie and Madonna adopted, as I don't follow pop culture too closely, is this some kind of (off topic, but that's ok) generalized condemnation of international adoption?
As part of an adoptive family of two girls from Korea (my sisters), who had various experiences I should not discuss for privacy reasons, I'm not in love with the idea that white women who adopt internationally are imperialists looking to salve their egos. There are individual factor that outsiders know nothing about. I'll go further: I find it insulting, and don't want to see it here.
No one wants to be called a Stepford Wife. It's sexist. It's like calling Third Wave feminists Girls Gone Wild. Talking about how women buy into patriarchy and support patriarchy is different.
On the structural crap that perpetuates those positional differences that keep women from uniting politically....
Inertia is a force of nature. If there were female-oriented institutions that promoted a coming together, a working together, across the typical positional barriers, would Cindy McCain have grown up to be a Republican? Or would the personal influence of other women have been the catalyst to take her interest in philanthropy to its logical conclusion---fighting the systemic, root causes that create the need for that philanthropy?
I ask because we tend to be pretty damn good at organizing amongst our own groups. It's more than mere familiarity---it's knowing the language, the codes, the nuances of communication. And Communication is Everything.
Also, when it comes to the men's groups, there's another factor I think fosters the barrier crossing. Their "plumage", or lack thereof. See, women can be easily "typed" by clothing, hairstyle, degree of grooming (nails? skin? does she use a razor, depilatory, wax, or *gasp!* not remove body hair at all? does she dye her hair? etc.) in a way that men can't. Men have a fallback "neutral" look to adopt (if they choose) for both formal and casual occasions. We don't, period. Having that neutral look helps break barriers.
LaLubu, I think that's a post! Seriously, I'd love to see more on that.
It's a key distinction, I think. Men really don't look all that different across class. There are sometimes differences but it's subtle. A T-shirt and jeans+sneakers, not expensive ones usually, is a pretty typical weekend look for guys. Women can usually type each other quickly, on the other hand, and organize accordingly much of the time.
I think that's a reason men (and women) critique men along mostly action/belief lines (unless for dating purposes), whereas women (and men) are more likely to look at presentation/appearance of women as part of the scrutiny.
Octo- yep, HC got put thru the punches for her wardrobe as well, and I saw an interesting interview with M.Obama, who was talking how for Barack, it's EASY, he puts on a suit...
Focus on appearance is a symptom of patriarchy and sexism. Class markers separate women into those who are acceptable and unacceptable to men. Ultimately, sexism and racism are about distribution of labor and resources.
Women are separated by sexism and, ultimately, the unequal distribution of labor and resources.
Donna, agree. The "acceptable and unacceptable to [a certain kind of] men" compartments are used by women and men to judge women. Whereas acceptability to women is not used by men to judge each other, as often.
I don't think this benefits men or women, because men come in for judgment too in certain ways. While appearance is used against women in all kinds of ways, it can also help women vault class boundaries (thinking of a Latina top model and bond girl who went to my high school and grew up in a very poor neighborhood in a broken home) in a way that's not as accessible to men, usually. And poor-but-traditionally-hot women are judged by other women but often considered by men to be higher-level prospects than their wealthy-but-not-traditionally-hot sisters.
Re Ren's example of Barack putting on a suit. Totally. His hair and clothes aren't going to be scrutinized as will Hillary's or Michelle's. Flip side is for some of us (hand up admitting this) the ability to use appearance as a weapon in a way that women have more power to do - is something I am willing to do, have done, and want to continue to do.
So -- not sure where this is going, but the idea of appearance-related obstacles to female bonding across class (and possibly other non-class-related lines) is one that cuts a number of different ways and makes hypocrites out of some of us.
We can look at appearance through the lens of gender only. I didn't mean to introduce class and race angles. Women are categorized as good or bad girls through their appearance and behavior so you have Stepford Wife/good girl Cindy McCain, addict/bad girl McCain, pantsuit-wearing/bad girl Clinton and not Stepford wife enough until The View/bad girl Obama. The class angle comes up because sexism and racism are ultimately about the distribution of labor and resources.
Octo, to be clear, Nezua was not referring to "regular" people who adopt internationally, but famous, rich people who have savior-complexes and incidentally, want to look good for the press. (i.e. the nannies do the real work)
Nez's 2006 Colonizers of the Year Award!
The McCain's adoption of their child was PRECISELY DURING the Keating Five scandal. Pardon my cynicism with the timing. But such manipulations of the press (as I believe it was) do not apply to ordinary folks like your parents.
Also, when it comes to the men's groups, there's another factor I think fosters the barrier crossing. Their "plumage", or lack thereof. See, women can be easily "typed" by clothing, hairstyle, degree of grooming (nails? skin? does she use a razor, depilatory, wax, or *gasp!* not remove body hair at all? does she dye her hair? etc.) in a way that men can't. Men have a fallback "neutral" look to adopt (if they choose) for both formal and casual occasions. We don't, period. Having that neutral look helps break barriers.
Great comments, La Lubu.
I can't believe the recent hoopla over Michelle Obama not wearing pantyhose. Whose fucking business is THAT? Ironically it was Barbara Walters who brought it up, which pissed me off even more. (And no, I don't care if Cindy doesn't wear them either!)
But that's a subtle racial thing... Michelle "got by with it" longer than any white woman would have, because her legs are naturally dark. But now that her secret is "out"--it's considered fair game to discuss this.
Do we talk about what men wear or don't wear? Ha.
Thanks for the clarification, Daisy.
Reading the story of Bridget's adoption, I don't feel qualified to speculate as to motive.
I hate pantyhose. Glad I missed Walters bringing that up. Someday, hopefully we'll have the pleasure of seeing what kind of scrutiny the First Man gets - or not.
At the risk of being further misunderstood and/or annoying ...
I think you wrote two posts. One says "misogyny is misogyny is misogyny, even when applied to women we don't like, even when applied to women whose actions are anti-women." To that post I say Hurrah.
The second post says "Cindy McCain ain't so bad. Look at all the good stuff she's done! She's not just a vapid rich bitch. She didn't break up her husband's first marriage, he was the pursuer. Other people have problems with drugs too you know. Like other people running for president maybe? It's very stressful helping your husband defraud people."
I disagree with the second post. I think she's scum.
The second post undermines the arguments of the first.
do we know whether CMcC is anti-choice, BTW?
Why would you need to see evidence of CMcC's drug policies? Isn't it innocent until proven guilty?
It isn't actually very important what her personal views are. She supports Republican causes and spends vast amounts of money on her Republican husband's presidential campaign. I don't need to go find some direct quote or reference to her or even his drug policy. The Republicans are TERRIBLE on this issue. That is all I need to know. JMcC staunchly anti-choice, she is supporting him, she is financing him.
No one misunderstood you.
CMcC did some good things. Addicts have a disease.
This is an awesome post! I had felt bad for her before with the sexist way the press was treating her(and I am anti-Republican to the core) I was not aware of all that she had accomplished.
The attitude that women who are judged to be insufficently feminist in their personal life deserve all wrath is the reason so many feminists this primary season saw no reason they shouldn't hate HRC for the same sexist reasons that men do.
We need to also not confuse her politics with her husband's, even if her money has made his career possible. Wives of politicians have held different views since at least Abigail Adams. HRC was anti-NAFTA and pro-intervening in Rwanda, Laura Bush is pro-choice and pro-education. And so it will continue and those wives DO NOT have a responsibility to divorce or poison their husbands for anyone else's satisfaction.
We absolutely should recognize and call out the sexism against Cindy McCain because it is still about the oppression faced by all of us.
@smmo
The only anti-woman thing she can be accused of is who she's married to. CMcC is no Phyllis Schafly. Octo brought up some of the underreported pro-women things she's done. BTW when you're married to someone, money is part of that shared property. It's both of their money and hardly in the spirit of marital partnership for her to say "No honey, only I inherited this" CMcC can't be her husband's puppetmaster. What she can do is go beyond what most of us(and most heiresses) do, to make a difference to the most disadvantaged people in the developing world and here in this country.
Still, If you agree with what you call the first post, you can't say that it's undermined by the second, by the future destination of her eternal soul.
I see we're going to play the "criticizing any women at any time for anything is sexist" game. That is a very dull game.
The idea that CMcC isn't culpable for her husband's politics is part of the same mindset that gives us Silda Spitzer and Dina McGreevey standing next to their husbands at the microphone as they do their "I'm sorry" dance.
SMMO – I think you’re breaking it out a little too clinically. What you call the second “post” is context to see that CMcC does happen to be a person, beyond the stereotypes. Many people who are stereotyped are. Most of them aren’t perfect. The complexity is such that we cannot say it’s two posts. Yes, clinically, the key point is that “misogyny is misogyny even when applied to women we don’t like.” But an important point of the context is: sometimes the misogyny blinds us to things we might like about the people, although there are other things we will continue not to like.
Marge – thanks much. I agree that we cannot analyze marriages from without. I think there’s blame to be attached to CMcC for financing certain Republican policies if she was aware of them at the time (John's done some flip flops), sure. I don’t know everything going through her mind at the point she did this, though, and don’t feel that showing all sides of her is inappropriate. People are complicated, even though we’d like to box them neatly.
@smmo
It's called "sexist critiques of any women are still sexist" and to me it's not a game since I'm part of the group affected by it.
The idea that CMcC IS culpable for her husband's politics is sexist. Didn't you say before that you agree with this thesis?
"'misogyny is misogyny is misogyny, even when applied to women we don't like, even when applied to women whose actions are anti-women.' To that post I say Hurrah."
Silda Spitzer and Dina McGreevey and Mrs. Vitter and Hillary Clinton faced almost as much criticism from women for standing next to their husbands at the podium as their husbands did. I hope you understand what's wrong with that picture. That's the sort of deeply sexist mindset that holds women responsible for their own rape because they're culpable for their behavior and that of men.
Would any of you spend large sums of your own money on a political cause you didn't believe in? Didn't think so.
CMcC is culpable for her husband's politics because she spends her own money freely on them, which leads me to believe she supports them personally. As for their finances, since she files separate tax returns, I think it is fair to consider her personal fortune her sole responsibility.
I don't believe it is sexist to critique the sexist model of the political wife. I don't believe it is sexist to wonder how the Spitzer daughters or Chelsea Clinton are affected by seeing their mothers victimized.
But an important point of the context is: sometimes the misogyny blinds us to things we might like about the people, although there are other things we will continue not to like.
I'm not going to claim my own internalized misogyny doesn't raise its ugly head from time to time, as it does for all of us. There are very few human beings on the planet who don't have some redeeming qualities. She may have more than most. But on balance, to my mind, she's still scum. I think that's a gender-free insult, no?
The post didn't say she donated money to his campaign. It's a fair article on CMcC and it would be great to see more posts like this on Obama and CMcC.
Thank you so much for being a bullet against the "white middle class" stereotype Octo. Love this post which is the essence of feminism. You really SEE the woman not the male defined labels adopted by male identified women who serve as the boy's club bashing other women with their poli sci 101 understanding of life.
SMMO: “There are very few human beings on the planet who don't have some redeeming qualities. She may have more than most. But on balance, to my mind, she's still scum. I think that's a gender-free insult, no?”
If you’re confident that you’re not influenced by her appearance or gender in any way in coming to that conclusion. Not my place to judge that.
Donna –thanks and hopefully some will come from you. Loved your post-primary thoughts post BTW.
GC – many thanks! And how ironic, since some of my posts focusing on work-life issues are sometimes viewed as male-identified!
idk, you write so well. pocochina wrote the awesome rant!
The idea that CMcC isn't culpable for her husband's politics is part of the same mindset that gives us Silda Spitzer and Dina McGreevey standing next to their husbands at the microphone as they do their "I'm sorry" dance.
Excuse me?? Certainly I must be reading this wrong. Surely you're not saying the wives are to blame for the actions of their husbands??
I thought I was reading a feminist thread, what the hell happened...
You really SEE the woman not the male defined labels adopted by male identified women who serve as the boy's club bashing other women with their poli sci 101 understanding of life.
And yet calling certain women "male-identified" (for having a "poli sci 101 understanding"? what?) is somehow okay. I see.
No wait, I don't. Same shit, different day. Some women are more equal than others.
Back to the idea feminism shouldn't discount patriarchy-compliant women.
Surely you're not saying the wives are to blame for the actions of their husbands??
No, I'm not saying that, but I can see - re-reading what I wrote - how it comes across that way. I'm trying express how much I hate the entire "political wife" thing and how entirely divorced they generally are from their husband's work - deliberately and strategically - to the point that their "job" becomes stand by your man, literally, and it is just gross.
Octo, as always, I like to debate with you but anytime you want me to shove off I think you know I'll do so immediately.
I do believe I managed to get all the way through Poli Sci 102, thankyouverymuch.
Seen at the grocery store tonight: Time Magazine with CMcC on the cover and the headline "Behind That Smile." I didn't read the article, but I'm sure is was in-depth on her clothes, hair and figure. Assholes.
Overheard at the grocery store tonight:
Callous young man #1: Did you hear Brittney tried to commit suicide?
Callous young man #2: Good!
The seemingly mandatory Friday night trip to get some item you've managed to run out of is bad enough, but to be treated to a Festival of Misogyny while there is insult to injury.
Amber -- I don't agree with the term "male-identified" for women. But I read what GC said to refer to Coulters or Caitlin Flanagans, or even some feminists, who bash other women in a gendered way.
SMMO – appreciate the clarification that it’s the system rather than the political wives themselves that you were critiquing. Maybe someday we’ll have political husbands who do the same thing, and maybe some time after that it won’t necessary any more (maybe because the guys won’t do it?)
I like a good debate too. No worries. Life is boring without controversy, and most things worth doing involve at least a little of it. That’s why I wrote this. I look forward to your comments.
Amber -- I don't agree with the term "male-identified" for women. But I read what GC said to refer to Coulters or Caitlin Flanagans, or even some feminists, who bash other women in a gendered way.
Perhaps. But I don't think male-identified is the accurate term for that. And as I'm sure you can appreciate, the term itself conjures up all sorts of recent memories of it being used against women who do things the speaker happens to disapprove of. (Work in the adult industry, like a certain type of sex, be ambitious in business, be successful in a career... etc etc...)
Agree. As you know, there are many so-called feminists out there in bloglandia who feel I am male-identified, when they're not accusing me of actually being male. Don't love that, but guess who it says more about?
Male identified women are women who choose men and male definitions of women over other similarly situated women - male identified women are those who sleep with their girlfriend's lover, women who Uncle Tom for men - women who keep other women in line for the boys on the left or right - women who cut the clitoris off their daughters even in the US because daddy wants to preserve his honor - women who kiss the pope's ring - women who voted for BO - women who pretend MOB is experiencing sexism - women who cannot respect a republican woman's goodness because they are in love with the male dominated left or democrat party, who did not pass the Equal Pay Act WITH a majority, who said they wanted to make abortion rare and did so, who have not done one fucking thing for women but make promises they do not keep, who expect us to kiss their ass because they raised the minimum wage 43 cents while voting their own raises and benefits. And for this I should trash a women bring doctors to Viet Nam children? Get over it.
There are male identified women and they are always seek to divide women and make certain of us off limits because we are not right politically or culturally or socially. These are male identified women. They are not women who have to earn their money off men - that is all of us.
And all of us go along to get along as much as we have to but the line is drawn when WE start to oppress other women by playing the bully girl and saying she cant be part of the club because she is wrong in some way.
Women identified women disagree on issues but they do not exclude and say she is not one of US. Women identified women find the common ground - seek to help other women self actualize, see our caste status, our common gender oppression, rather than what divides us. Women identified women reach out to one another over the lines men have drawn between us for our common good, understanding we all must win for any of us to win because we are connected by gender.
Women identified women view gender as a caste and feminism as a Union.
See, Mary Daley GYNecology for more and better explanations of male identification.
Don't confuse it with limiting stereotypes of women as purer or softer or more nurturing or all that crapola.
We need to also not confuse her politics with her husband's, even if her money has made his career possible.
Do we do this with any other political contributor? You are saying she deserves a pass for being his wife. I say she doesn't.
And I don't think she wants one; she takes every opportunity to back up the hubby, when expected to do so.
And all of us go along to get along as much as we have to but the line is drawn when WE start to oppress other women by playing the bully girl and saying she cant be part of the club because she is wrong in some way.
And yet calling another woman "male-identified" - appointing oneself judge, jury, and executioner - does not fall under that rubric?
(I've read lot of Mary Daly's writings, btw. Enjoyed most of it.)
Women in the public eye will be vilified. Too fat, too thin, too rich, too blond, too not blond, ugly, pretty, poor, loud, quiet, nice, mean, etc. ad infinitum.
Right, and that's NOT OKAY!!
We should not throw up our hands and say, eh, that's how it is.
That's the whole point of feminism!!
I mean, god, do we throw up our hands and say, "Women will be sexually harassed"?
I sure as hell HOPE NOT!!
You have to be judge, jury and executioner for your own life - it is called self actualization - I have the responsibility and I have the power - I will not be a victim. I am the power - I am the control. I Know the enemy and cannot be led down the garden path to my own destruction.
Check out Daley’s work on male identification again - it is deep.
Also in life, people from the oddest places, can be very helpful. The women who have done the most to help women in afghan & Iraq are in the Office of International Women's Issues in the state dept - all repubs under Condi rice a single childless pro choice republican. their work including 17 regional women's centers in afghan is phenomenal and could have been better with the help of us feminists. but no . women here were more concerned about their left credentials than helping liberate slave women in the theocracies.
The Catholic Campaign for Human Development funded a lot of my rape work in the 1980's ??? Duh ? I was shocked while it was happening. Campus Ministries ran an underground abortion railroad in the 1960's while the left just screamed at the feminist movement for being white middle class. I respected them having had a butcher abortion before there was any help. I am and always was an atheist yet religious people have helped me.
I have learned to look past the political and social affiliations - a lot of us end up reaching over lines, soul to soul.
The reason I’m not comfortable with the term male identified, Daly notwithstanding,unless it’s a term a woman chooses for herself, is that it eliminates the possibility that women can choose particular actions on their own steam. Because they want to do them, have made a flawed decision, or even be cruel – as women.
For women who seek to divide women, sell out other women (eg, Flanagan), for their own gain – I’d call them selfish, hypocritical and antifeminist. But not male-identified.
I agree that people can be strong allies despite what appear to be significant differences. I discovered that a close friend who was my maid of honor was a Republican and a big Reagan fan, by accident. We had discussed political issues and largely agreed, but for whatever reason hadn’t discussed the areas on which we disagreed in enough detail for me to be aware of this. As it turns out, her fiscal conservativeness outweighs her social liberalness whereas with me it’s the reverse). She was up for my baby shower and I slept in and woke up to find her watching a Reagan documentary. Major turnoff! But then I remembered – in law school, and since, she’s done more pro bono work – and not the flashy, resume kind – than the large majority of liberals I know. She’s also someone who, without a lot of fanfare, has close friends who are of all races, classes and ability levels, whereas many liberal women who like to casually drop in “I have a lot of friends who…” rarely really do.
I always find myself agreeing with you Octo --
I know women can change from male identification - it is a process -- in fact I count on it. Maybe I will start saying that is a male identified position instead. Because a person can be mixed - WT here - MI there. But generally there are those who always go with the boys even to abuse of other women and children for the boys.
Also do not confuse male identification with affiliation - within every group, political, social, governmental, cultural,left right, there are women who identify with the boy's definitions and world view and others who are in the Union - it has noting to do with affiliation or sexual preference - it is who you identify with as similarly situated - you think, there for the grace of something go I.
It is like some women always find the rape victim guilty and some women understand that could be me.
This election is the PERFECT example - women identified women voted for Hillary - male identified women voted for BO. Do you see?
I wonder who your friend voted for?
BTW, if Donna comes around - I saw what you did and am honored beyond speech.
Whoa I just flashed on the problem -- I am thinking you are thinking I am equating men with evil? Hmmm a dilemma because as we all know, most men are just men.
Patriarchal identified is not what I mean though because these women alway choose men and the male position, regardless of what they say they feel, whatever it is. Hmmm I am thinking
................
and who says you cant choose to be male identified as much as women identified "under your own steam" I do it at least twice a day - I struggle with it on some issues especially when I feel attacked. Awareness is a evolving process - I used to be unconscious but now I am more conscious
I am laughing because I just got it -- why doesn't she understand this I was thinking and my angel answered: She is too woman identified to divide women like that.
HA! But I have too much testosterone not to notice and take notes as to who does not have my back.
GC -- my issues with the term don't have to do with an assumption that you're saying men are evil or that male-identified has something to do with sexuality or anatomy the way you're using it. But because, while there may well be women who do feel more similarly situated with and loyal to men than vs women, we cannot know when an action stems from that and when a woman may simply choose that action for independent reasons. Imposing our assumptions as to her motives isn't something I'm comfortable with.
Who my friend voted/is voting for? McCain.
This election is the PERFECT example - women identified women voted for Hillary - male identified women voted for BO. Do you see?
No, I don't.
I voted for Obama. But then, this isn't the first time or first reason I've been called "male identified."
It stinks, bad.
I want everyone to notice my restraint. See Octo, I try.
Oct -in reference to your last post male identified is not about motives. It is about their actions in the real world - the outer world. I never care about people's motives - I watch what they DO.
GC -- only thing is, there can be a number of motives for most actions.
On voting, for example. I have to admit something. It does bug me when friends/family vote for Obama (which happens alot). In my view, their articulated positions were very similar except hers better (again, IMO) and she had much more experience backing them up plus has actually done more for women nd children and minorities. The story of an older, more qualified woman being pushed aside by a young charismatic guy with craftier backers is a familiar one to me.
But this reaction isn't fair to my friend/family Obama voters and so I push it away. I don't know what their thought process is. I cannot assess whether it's feminist. If I respect them as individuals, then I need to accept that it most likely is, and that a feminist framework can support a choice different from mine.
Octo
It is more likely that they are sexists or have internalized sexism BUT IT DOES NOT MATTER - the action says it all - it is a male identified action/person that chooses Obama for all the reasons you stated and a billion more.
The actions tell it all -think how we teach women to behave on the street to avoid Rape. Do we ask them to guess the motives of men who follow them? Watch the behavior - it is the indicator - don't second guess your self.
The reasons for choosing an inexperienced male who got where he is over the bodies of two black women he betrayed - a man who did nothing for Chicago's south side, an obvious tool to divide democrats, instead of a proven feminist producer, are rationalizations and there will always be more rationalizations.
Feminists would not choose Obama. Black feminists did not choose Obama and were crucified for it. Keep your eyes open - you will see patterns - you don't have to do anything about it - it is just a little knowledge you have about those persons to do with as you choose.
With me and another person it was the last straw but that's me. She went from friend to someone I feel sorry for but she just always identifies with men. In her classes she teaches male authors, male psychology, male artists and now male politicians. She defines women as men do - sees women in corporations as not womanly because they are into a dirty business. It a version of the pushy dominating caricature men have about women who succeed in business. It is how MSM saw Hillary. I get tired of educating these kinds of women. I like to be around feminists where I don't have to explain so much.
Speaking of Ann Coulter she did the essay we have all been waiting for on Obama calling his grandmother a racist - it was great I posted the whole thing on Tennessee Guerilla - i will come back with the cite
There was no way to link to it so I brought it over. This is what I mean by sometimes right wing women have feminist things to say:
Dreams from my Father, Lame Excuses from my Grandfather
by Ann Coulter
Since a Chinese graduate student at Columbia University, Minghui Yu, was killed last Friday when black youths violently set upon him, sending him running into traffic to escape, I think B. Hussein Obama ought to start referring to the mind-set of the "typical Asian person."
As of Wednesday, police had no motive for the attack, and witnesses said they heard no demand for money or anything else. The Associated Press reports that the assailant simply said to his friend, "Watch what I do to this guy" before punching Yu.
Meanwhile, let's revisit the story about Obama's grandmother being guilty of thinking like a "typical white person." As recounted in Obama's autobiography, the only evidence that his grandmother feared black men comes from Obama's good-for-nothing, chronically unemployed white grandfather, who accuses Grandma of racism as his third excuse not to get dressed and drive her to work.
His grandmother wanted a ride to work at 6:30 in the morning because, the day before, she had been aggressively solicited by a homeless man at the bus stop. On her account, the panhandler "was very aggressive, Barry. Very aggressive. I gave him a dollar and he kept asking. If the bus hadn't come, I think he might have hit me over the head."
Even Obama's shiftless grandfather didn't play the race card until pretty far into the argument over whether he would drive Grandma to work. First, the good-for-nothing grandfather told Obama that Grandma was just trying to guilt him into driving her, saying, "(S)he just wants me to feel bad."
Next, he complained about his non-work routine being disrupted, saying: "She's been catching the bus ever since she started at the bank. ... And now, just because she gets pestered a little, she wants to change everything!"
Only after Obama had offered to drive his grandmother to work himself and it was becoming increasingly clear what a selfish lout the grandfather was, did Grandpa produce his trump card. The reason he wouldn't get his lazy butt dressed and drive Grandma to work was ... she was a racist!
As Obama recounts it, on Grandpa's third try at an excuse, he told Obama: "You know why she's so scared this time? I'll tell you why. Before you came in, she told me the fella was black. That's the real reason she's bothered. And I just don't think that's right." So I guess I'll be heading back to the sack now!
That makes sense. It certainly never bothers me when crazy white people harass and threaten me.
This is Obama's own account of what happened, which -- as anyone can see -- consisted of his slacker grandfather making a series of excuses to avoid having to drive the sole bread-earner in the family to work.
But Obama says, "The words were like a fist in my stomach, and I wobbled to regain my composure." (It was as if he had been punched by an aggressive panhandler at a bus stop!) And not because his grandfather's sorry excuse reminded him that he came from a long line of callow, worthless men, both black and white.
No, Obama swallowed his grandfather's pathetic excuse hook, line and sinker, leading Obama to a reverie about his grandparents: "I knew that men who might easily have been my brothers could still inspire their rawest fears." That's true -- assuming his brothers and sisters were menacing people at bus stops.
How deranged would you have to be to cite this incident as evidence that your grandmother thought like a "typical white person" -- as opposed to your grandfather being worthless and lazy? For those keeping score, Obama is aghast at his grandmother's alleged racism, but had no problem with Jeremiah Wright's manifest racism.
If Obama is sent reeling by the mere words of an elderly white woman, how is he going to negotiate with a guy like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? What if Ahmadinejad calls him "booger-face"? Will he run crying from the table?
Your grandmother wasn't a racist, Barack. Your grandpa was just a loser. Can we wrap up our national conversation about race now? I think we'd like to move onto questions about your stupid plan to hold talks with Iran.
Well see, when someone says that I'm [X] (deluded, male-identified, in denial, the list goes on), it pretty much shuts down any possibility of a discourse. It makes me feel that I am not seen as an intellectual equal in the conversation. I'm someone (or someTHING) to be talked ABOUT, not WITH. It doesn't matter what I say, because the judgment has been made. Why would I try to defend myself in a losing battle in that case? Why would I try to interact with people who have already closed the book on me? I respect myself and my mental energy, so I do not. So, bye for now.
If amber has something to say she should say it regardless of what other people say or think of her - just like Hillary did.
I think Amber is leaving/left because really what can a woman say after she says, I voted for Obama - jeez.
Amber, the book's absolutely not closed as I hope my comment made clear. I don't expect everyone to have the same opinions as a requirement of either being my friend or being someone I consider smart, a feminist, pick it.
GC feels strongly about voting for HRC; some Obama supporters feel strongly the other way. I don't agree. Per above, my probably closest friend is voting McCain. She's still my closest friend, and yeah, a feminist too.
I didn't "leave," but I planned to stop commenting.
Octo, my comment had nothing to do with you - you are and have been stellar. But I absolutely do NOT appreciate the way Greenconsciousness is talking to (or should I say, about - in her latest comment she refers to me in the third person) me dripping with disdain and condescension. That doesn't make for a hospitable environment conducive to dialogue.
Amber
I have nothing to say to you - I found out all I want to know about you and from you in previous discussions.
I don't appreciate anything about you especially how when your ideas and politics are exposed as half formed and not centered in woman's liberation you cry victim, guilt trip and attack the "tone" of women who do not agree with you. So argue your point or shut up but stop characterizing me or the way I talk. This was your candidate's tactic against Hillary and she was gracious but I do not intend to take any of your bully girl tactics.
GC -- I greatly value both you and Amber being here, and don't want this to be an inhospitable environment for anyone. Please do not make further comments of a personal nature towards Amber. Feel free to disagree with any of her specific ideas, but I don't want anyone insulted here. If women don't feel comfortable here, no matter who they voted for, then it's not much of a feminist site.
Per above, my probably closest friend is voting McCain. She's still my closest friend, and yeah, a feminist too.
I basically have one rule for feminism, and that is you have to be pro-choice. And at the bare minimum, pro-choice means not supporting anti-choice candidates, especially for POTUS. You're friend may be a lovely person, she may support women in important ways, but she isn't a feminist.
GC: For all your posturing about reaching across boundaries Amber nails it perfectly when she says your words "drip[ping] with disdain and condescension."
"you're friend"
OK, now THAT is embarrassing. Can I claim not enough caffeine?
SMMO -
Tough, that is exactly how I feel about Amber although I did not talk about her personally as both you and her have done to me. I reach out to those who want to work for women. And I stand for feminism - you have your rules I have mine.
I say again -keep your bully gang girl tactics off my back - I am not interested in your personal opinions about me or your bully trashing. Speak to issues - not personalities. I know who I am.
SMMO - did I hear you on the PUMA conference call?
Donna Darko - I wish I could contact you - state co-ordinators are being chosen for PUMA and I was thinking about you - how can we connect? Your site has the comments turned off.
Octo name any personal comments I made to Amber not in response to her insults.
Your bias is showing.
It is always telling when a person does exactly what they loudly accuse others of doing.
GC -- if anything, I am biased towards HRC supporters, which is why I waited longer than I should have to step up. I love your boldness and your willingness to state controversial points of view, esp since I'm mostly in agreement. But yeah, I felt your statements to Amber that she was (1) not a feminist b/c she voted for Obama; (2) male ID'd for same reason; (3) you have nothing to say to her; (4) you don't appreciate anything about her, to be personal statements.
Similarly, you can count on the fact that if my husband or mom showed up here (both read but neither comment!) and said anything like that to you, I would have similar reaction to them, bias notwithstanding.
I love having both you and Amber here and I hope you can understand that I want this to be somewhere it's possible to have diverging viewpoints without getting into more direct characterizations.
SMMO -- I agree (as we discussed on previous post) that one cannot be an anti-choice feminist. My friend who's voting McC is pro choice. While I do not agree with how she's balanced the variables, she doesn't feel that with a Democratic Congress that will be threatened. She also feels JMcC has triangulated his choice stance to appeal to the right and is going to back off. She does not want to pay 60% in taxes and feels BO is inexperienced, untested, and not a feminist. She was a HRC supporter and has been a PP volunteer.
I'm not thrilled with her ability to vote for an someone who, even if they've flip-flopped around, is currently anti-choice. But knowing her personally, I am not going to take away her feminist card -- even if I could.
Ah yes, taxes. This is the argument my Christian, environmentalist, pacifist father makes as to why he votes Republican. So I'll say what I always say to him: the minute you start counting money as more important than human beings is the minute you have no soul. And the minute you don't get to claim Christ or pacifism or environmentalism.
feels BO is ... not a feminist.
So she's going to vote for someone she KNOWS isn't a feminist?
First off let's differentiate "these are the reasons and I get them in part but ultimately disagree" with "my friend and I are actually the same person." We're not.
The context in introducing her was "person I care very much about and think is a feminist but profoundly disagree with in various ways [some of which seem like a betrayal to even mention]."
That said -- I don't get the argument of: "so you could vote for someone who's all bad on one issue but not half bad on that issue?" Because there are many issues. This gal, "L" happens to think choice is important, taxes are important, environmentalism is important, human rights are important. She lines up with Repubs on most economic policies (recall, HRC wasn't as punitive on self-employed entrepreneurs as BO is-- and L, like me, is in that category). And with Dems on most social issues. So weighing it all out, she'd pick a Dem she thinks is really strong on the latter, even who'd institute higher taxes than the Repub candidate. But she wouldn't pick a Dem she feels will eventually sell out many social issues and also be what she feels is too hardcore on taxes.
To me, while I weigh the variables differently, I can see how coming from where she is, the math makes sense.
Similar math may apply to your dad.
Folks -- heading off to a grueling day and a half of candidate meetings. Play nice!
Hi, GC, I linked you before, you know! sympathize with PUMA but am not really a PUMA. Thanks for your compliments.
Yes Octo those were person statements in response to personal attacks.
I am not going to let male identified women argue about my tone because they want to divert from the crassness of their positions. I have a video of MOB being asked if she would work for the Hill if Clinton won and she answers, "I don't know, I would have to consider the (Hills)tone of her campaign" This is when they were accusing the Clintons of being racist every chance they got.
You have two BO supporters here doing the same thing. Snide little attacks about my attitude not being "respectful" enough. And you are acting the same way a lot of people did during the campaign giving them the benefit of the doubt. Why should I be precluded from answering their personal attacks in kind? - I never said a word about Amber personally until she attacked my tone - I was not even talking to her - talking to you because I have no interest in talking to Amber or her sidekick. But if Amber attacks me personally I will tell her exactly what I think of her tactics. That is fair.
Now you tell AMBER and SM to stop talking about me and I will go back to ignoring them.
I will not visit here to be insulted by them and silenced by you. I watched these tactics in the campaign and it reminded me of the do nothing bigmouths from the second wave.
I will not stand for the politics of personal attack on the style of a person rather than the substance of their ideas ever again in my life.
If they don't like what I say or how I say it and they cannot discus the idea itself --they should ignore it and I will do the same in return.
Poop Donna
Our Loss
if you ever want to talk to me my comments are moderated so you can leave a comment on the blog- say do not publish and i can answer if you give me an email address because i don't think I have yours unless it is on my other machine.
Amber + SMMO: Sidekicks 4EVuh.
GC -- I'd be very disappointed if you left or if you feel silenced.
Looking back through the thread, it seems like this started when you mentioned the term "male identified," Amber disagreed with its use, mentioned she voted for Obama, and then you said people who vote for Obama are male-ID'd and not feminist. At that point she said some things about tone.
I think your raising the idea of M-I is fine; I don't agree with using that for women, but we can agree to disagree. It was the statements about Amber based on her vote that I felt were over the top. If she'd said anything about your or my vote for HRC, I'd have had the same reaction. OK I'm lying, I'd have had a much stronger reaction!
OK Octo, It gets confusing with who said what. I feel I responded not initiated personal attack because I did not name Amber in any of my discussions of male identification and specifically did not respond to her when she said she voted for BO (and even now I am tempted to say what I could have said then). Instead I said "I want everyone to notice my restraint". I felt I was being very non-personal by not responding with something like "case closed".
I don't know if I am mad about being personally attacked or still mad over how Hillary was attacked. I know I will never trust any woman who voted for BO instead of Hillary, unlike a repub voter for McCain who did not have the choice between a competent woman with a record vs a tool of the corporate elites.
But I also know I totally respect you Octo - totally - and trust your feminism - so I give up. I am with you.
I do not know what to do about the term male identified - it is for women who always choose men - it is so simple really and it is an indicator tool for feminists just as they should recognize misogyny and sexism they should recognize male identification because it is unbalanced and leads to unfair discrimination and abuse of women in every area.
But I respect your right to run your own blog. I won't use that term on this website because it seems to trouble you so much. I like this blog and I think you are very fair. I don't always have to agree with everything to like and respect and go along with a person. So I will go along with you and be happy about it.
Peace in the Sisterhood !
Thanks :)
Women need to be empowered more in general. They need to use their looks for good rather than use them for personal selfish persuits. When you get a moment check out:
www.prettygirlssavetheworld.com .
wow what a great post. I had no idea that Cindy ever struggled with such problems. It's too bad our media won't cover this information.
alcohol addiction intervention
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