Every day.
Yup I said it!
Definitely. For one thing, I think looksism is worse for those who are not conventionally attractive than for those who are.
I also think classism is worse for those without means than for those with.
I think anti-intellectualism’s effect on the educated is more tolerable than elitism’s effect on those who do not have formal education.
Finally, I think ageism is worse for those over 50 than those under 30.
Anytime one end of a sliding scale is more societally acceptable, biases against people at that end are going to be collectively, on average, more tolerable than biases at the other end.
(For the record? This is semi-facetious. Of course, I believe that when talking about the core "isms," not just comparing ends of the spectrum for a particular "ism," comparisons or Olympics are futile and destructive).
Doesn’t mean one cannot or should not discuss when injustice exists even when one is on the more-societally-acceptable end. Especially if one is dealing with other isms simultaneously – racism, sexism, bias against sex workers, heterocentrism.
But that person - -the young or beautiful or brilliant – or hell, all three – person, let’s say she is a WOC and/or a lesbian and/or a sex worker. Well, if she were not young, or beautiful, or brilliant, then things would most likely be worse.
In an effort to be liberal and even-handed, both of which are good things, let’s not lose our grip on reality.
We may feel it’s OK to group older Clinton supporters who are well off. And then make judgments – like: they are threatening not to vote for Obama for vengeance.
Note: I understand that when Black Amazon was saying this, she was not making a judgment that all older women who are HRC supporters fall into this category, but was assessing that a group of this description do based in part on an article that showed McCain’s support increasing among white women and various quotes from the women ( only two of whom, interestingly, indicated decisively that they would not vote for Obama. The majority simply voiced anger about sexism towards Clinton).
So while I still feel it’s problematic to generalize a group and its motivations based on a few quotes, which are somewhat unclear as to whether any substantive motivations exist, this is not in response to statements like BA’s. I read her conclusion as saying – if they’re doing this to exact revenge, without substantive reasons, and this revenge will have an impact on me and others similarly situated, then that’s a problem. With which, despite having some issues with the terminology, I agree.
No, this isn’t in response to one post by someone I respect whose conclusion I basically support. It’s in response to a multitude of IRL and online conversations about older women and/or older well-off women who are HRC supporters.
Let’s face it. If we can confidently say: “hey, it’s OK to make comments about well-off people because it’s pretty obvious that classism is only relevant when generalizing about poor people,” then we can say “it ain’t OK to make comments about older people because it’s pretty obvious that ageism is, at very least, particularly relevant when generalizing about older people.”
Like many things one shouldn’t do, this one has a couple of reasons.
The first is above. It’s not OK. It’s not “the right thing to do.” For reflexive liberals, you can stop right there.
Pragmatists, you still with me? Good.
The other reason?
Remember Kathy Bates’ line in “Fried Green Tomatoes” when the cute young coeds took her parking spot, saying something about how they were younger and hotter?
No worries, I do.
She rammed their car and said: “I’m older and I have better insurance!”
Oh no, a threat that older women will fight with their pocketbooks? Not at all. Older women have different kinds of “insurance.” Knowledge. Experience. Wisdom. A map for where the loopholes are. A map for where the traps are. An old rolodex on low-tech three by fives with some names of people they knew when, who will take their calls and have strings to pull. A sense of what loyalty, in and of itself, can purchase.
Maybe none of these things. Maybe all of these things.
You never know.
Sunday, June 8, 2008
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21 comments:
I find it odd that when, in reading around in lots of places, how rampant the ageism is, really. How often it is generalized that women over a certain age simply no longer get it, are out of the loop, have no idea how it is, so on...as if, perhaps, they've never been there themselves? It can be very exclusionary or off-putting.
Fried Green Tomatoes is one of my favorite movies, so yes, I remember!
Now, I'm going to say something that always makes me laugh at myself when I say it, because I reflexively go down the philosophical rabbit hole: I hate generalizations. (The reason I laugh is, my mind just can't help responding with... "Oh yeah?? THAT is a generalization right there, missy!" And so it goes.)
Here's something else I think: There's always going to be someone who has it "worse" than whomever is being discussed at any given moment. And? Constantly bringing that up is a derailing tactic and, I believe, part and parcel of silencing.
Re: ageism, I do agree that there is rampant ageism against women over 50. However I also have felt the effects of I guess you would call it "reverse ageism" - not being taken seriously because I was perceived as "too young." I don't know which is "worse," since thus far in my life I have only experienced one type. But I do know that it hurt like hell.
I am so used to reverse ageism, but I almost don't mind it. I do it to younger people too, to an extent.
We do have a lot to learn. Ageism in the other direction is far more damaging and has less excuse.
I don't think there is any comparison with old/young ageism, since the young have so much going for them: time, looks, health (usually, but if not, we see that as a form of oppression, too, right?), the coolness factor, seemingly-unlimited options, etc. The market panders to youth; we can hardly get any movies made anymore unless it's understood that the kids will flock to it.
When I was young, I didn't realize any of this, of course. You learn about these pluses only in their absence(s).
Ren: How often it is generalized that women over a certain age simply no longer get it, are out of the loop, have no idea how it is, so on...
And my question, quite seriously: Who do they think those people WERE in the 60s and 70s, having sex in disco bathrooms, engaging in group marriages and Bob-and-Carol-and-Ted-and-Alice type encounters? All of those people are my age and older now. It's like they have some idea that all old people just retire and instantly become Baptists, or something. I dunno.
Another old woman and I had a long discussion the other day, about how conservative the young seem to be--and does liberalism mark us as "old"? Odd that 'stylistic' liberalism (willingness to try new fashions, music, clubs, vacation spots, foods) is popular with the American young, but NOT idealistic or intellectual liberalism. They close down immediately if you bring up alternative governmental systems; i.e., the words "anarchism" or "socialism" make them sneer, go silent in utter confusion, or just hyperventilate. They will tell you with a straight face that we can't simply completely withdraw from Iraq--not seeming to realize that we did the very same thing in Vietnam, after the VC rode into town. (We gonna wait until that happens again? Apparently.)
I think the young folks for Obama are projecting this lost idealism onto him, and he is like a blank slate for their lost, unexpressed idealism.
The Reagan years really damaged the young people's sense of their world, as I knew it would. Another reason to hate Republicans.
And yes, all of this, I say as someone who has closely observed such things for a long time. I get the idea that the very act of such pontificating tends to piss young people off, particularly on the nets.
Ren -- that is true, it is odd. How quickly one passes into perceived irrelevance.
Amber -- I agree. This post was actually addressing a claim that both ends of certain "isms" are equally problematic. I agree, though, that in the context of someone talking about her experiences, someone else piping in with a comparison is typically unhelpful or derailing.
Apostate -- I hear you on that. I'm just at the point now where the reverse ageism ("How many years out of law school are you? why should I listen to you?") is stopping. It does suck.
But there are always two comforts:
1) you can prove them wrong, if given the chance, and if not, you can try again in a couple of years;
2) you know this won't be a problem in 5,10, 20 years.
Older people don't have these comforts.
Amber -- I agree. This post was actually addressing a claim that both ends of certain "isms" are equally problematic. I agree, though, that in the context of someone talking about her experiences, someone else piping in with a comparison is typically unhelpful or derailing.
Yeah, that was my point... I'm not sure if the reason is people feeling insecure/defensive, or the internet not always lending itself to clear communication, or projection, or what, but I feel like sometimes people confuse (b) with (a). When I'm writing about my own life, something I've experienced, a way I feel, etc., I try to be clear that that's what I'm talking about - not some nebulous generality. Sometimes I'm not clear enough, because I forget or just don't care (if I'm pissed off in the moment, or what-have-you); other times I am careful to be explicitly clear. At either extreme and all points in between, though, I've had people jump all over me for making claims that I was not making at all.
I think it's powerful for women to speak openly and honestly about our lives/experiences. From the diversity of those truths, maybe we can extrapolate to whatever larger themes might be floating about. That's what I think, anyway; but sometimes I get caught up in some hippie shit!
ahem...quotes i love?
"I'm using what Mother Nature gave me before Father Time takes it away" -a 50 something on "judge mathis"
I've had an interesting time of it in bloglandia wrt to age. Before I stated my age, EVERYONE assumed I was a 20 something...younger than them, no doubt, college-aged, whatever. Then, low and behold, I stated flat out how old I was a few times, and now a lot of those same people cannot, esp. wrt to my industry, stop gleefully reminding me of how old I am! Now, I do kind of smirk that these folks could oh, see what I looked like and think I was young and all, yet now, well shit, I'm over the hill because they have the accurate number now....but yeah, it's been interesting.
fortunately I'm a grumpy, cynical libertarian who is somehow in the middle of the age split.
Daisy- well, they say every generation rebels against the one before them. A lot of the free love/disco/liberal/radical sorts were products of Very Conservative WWII America. The kids of those kids? Maybe rebelling by going back to that.
Daisy -- interest point wrt idealistic or intellectual liberalism. And about kids projecting lost idealism. But wrt "another old woman," huh? Since when are you old? My grandma is 102 (over twice your age) -- THAT's old.
Ren -- funny how just revealing the number without any other differences can set off a reaction. I made the mistake of revealing mine once when dancing for a guy in LV. He'd already paid 500. He said "you're older than my wife!" and made a quick exit. Probably not back to her though, alas.
Ageism discriminates against both young and old. Oppression Olympics is saying one -ism is worse than another. Contrary to what people think, Oppression Olympics is not saying:
1) sexism is more acceptable than racism
2) sexism more ingrained than racism
3) there was more sexism than racism in the election.
Statements 1), 2) and 3) are all true.
Donna - per earlier posts, I agree with you on that, and on the distinction between public acceptability and worse/better.
This posts stems from seeing Oppression Olympics used to condemn pointing out which end of the spectrum of a particular ism is worse. I agree with you that this is inaccurate, thus my facetious titling.
I have no objections to your post or other posts! LOLZ
No worries. The context was a bit obscure.
I wrote out a response at my blog.
http://problemchylde.wordpress.com/2008/06/09/the-mobius-strip-of-ageism/
Thanks for letting me know, Sylvia! I'll reply there. I liked it a lot, BTW.
"time, looks, health (usually, but if not, we see that as a form of oppression, too, right?)"
I could be mistaken, But I've been under the impression that health concerns and the right to access services, quality health care, Independent living, et cetera was also considered an oppression issue for older individuals as well. I can't think why off the top of my head health issues for things like access and independent living would be different, considering all the intersections with disability. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you've typed?
and y'know, I can't stand this meme that says "Older women are for Clintonl; younger women want a young person who's in touch!" It just seems really ageist to me (against Clinton, I mean, not those of us who supported her.)
Trin -- I know! Interestingly, in my fam it's my mom who's for BHO and me who was for HRC.
The sense that experience equates to being out of touch is a big-time stereotype. That's like saying that history is irrelevant, and that trials and tribulations older women have gone through don't teach them anything that allows them to not only be "in touch" but to know what "new" ideas are really new. Sometimes a "new" idea, that seems new because of media and marketing polish, has been tried.
That's not to say that a fresh perspective isn't helpful sometimes. But the assumption that people of a certain age cannot have one -- well, there's a word for that.
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