Here is a document (click on “letter,” right hand side, middle of page) by Ann Russo and Melissa Spatz. Ann is a women’s studies professor and Melissa is Director of the Women & Girls Collective Action Network.
Take a quick look.
First-off: I believe feminism should be about all women, and should encompass concerns uniquely faced by WOC (without lumping all into one group where it doesn’t make sense), women of all income levels, ability levels, geographies and other varieties.
As I’ve said often, I believe intersectionalism does not equate to substitution.
So I agree with the declaration’s support of a feminism that understands that women aren’t a homogenous group and that not only understands how it intersects with racism but encompasses this rather than footnoting it.
I DO NOT agree with divisive “refusals” that suggest that a few statements made during the campaign by women who were hurt – just as statements have been made by POC who have been hurt – define feminism and make sense as impetuses for “refusing a feminism.” Are we “refusing an anti-racism” because some of it doesn’t take WOC into account?
And cut the drama, please. Which person with any serious platform is saying “the existence of sexism means that racism no longer exists?” I haven’t heard that.
It’s disgusting when comments such as the “lynching party” one are made about Michelle Obama, and numerous both WOC AND white feminists have called that out and devoted posts and blogs to it. There cannot be too much outcry on something like this, but why claim “there has been no similar feminist outcry by white women.” That’s simply false.
And then bemoaning “the ways that women's movements and organizations are embedded in white supremacist structures, ideas, and practices.” Um, is this different from other movements? Our culture has a long way to go on race. Women’s movements comprise a cross-section of our white-centric culture, sure, and that’s a problem. But let’s not forget that this cross section is on average more liberal and aware than the pool it’s drawn from. We cannot rest on our laurels, of course. But suggesting that women’s movements are uniquely white supremacist is idiotic.
And then the mention of the odd term “adultism.” I’m a little taken aback here. (See earlier ageism posts). Whenever one has generations, or any distinct groups, these groups feel their own voices are the more critical ones. Have we not heard youth groups scold and disdain older people similarly? Within feminism, there’s similar complaint from third-wavers that mom and grandma got it wrong. Of course, as the declaration states, “[w]e need to create intergenerational dialogues around our different political ideas and commitments.” But why pretend that the marginalization only goes in one direction? Bias perhaps?
“We refuse a feminism that confuses a campaign with a movement.” Now, THIS, I can get behind.
Somehow, someone will take from this post that I am against intersectionality and want to make feminism an upper-middle-class white woman’s movement. Being white, kind of interested in money (doesn’t matter why – just the topic itself is so male identified!), and a former sex-worker – not the sympathetic kind, either, but the Vegas kind. It’s such an unpleasant picture!
They'd be wrong.
The upshot is this:
Intersectionality does not equal substitution.
One may ask: but, how can you really do justice to intersectionality without discussing the underlying oppressions as well?
Of course, you cannot. But that doesn’t mean they are feminism. Just like gender issues with no discussion of race are not anti-racism.
Feminists who take intersectionality SERIOUSLY, who really want to DO it rather than talk about how nice it is, get that there’s an underlying context. A discussion of Islam and feminism requires feminists to have some basic context of the teachings of Muhammed. A discussion of gendered immigration abuses requires feminists engaging in such a discussion to grasp the rudiments of the politics of immigration and abuses of immigrants. Understanding issues specific to WOC requires reading books like this and spending some time on sites like this to be able to better understand these books dealing with intersectionality and encompass the ideas in them as part of your feminism.
So an understanding of race, religion, disability, etc. is a necessary foundation for anyone coming to feminism from an intersectional standpoint. But those other “isms” are a FOUNDATION, as feminism should be a foundation for other liberal movements. They’re not feminism; they’re not intersectionalism in themselves without the actual intersection.
OF COURSE not all women view gender as the primary oppression. But when we’re talking “feminism,” it’s the oppression that’s the common chord. None of us are focusing on feminist activities 24-7. We’re involved in anti-racism, environmentalism, whatever. When we’re in those groups, that should be our focus. I don’t go to meetings at inner-city schools about helping improve access to college and try to center gender. The common theme in those meetings is class, and to a degree race too. It’s not much to ask, IMO, that there be ONE place that centers gender. And that this not be assumed to only include certain women’s gender. Done right, feminism is about all women. But gender is the core.
Now on to the “commitments.”
I certainly agree that we should be self-reflective, holding politicians accountable for politics rather than identities (um, yeah), challenging misogyny and racism, speaking up about white supremacy in the feminist movement and election, and creating intergenerational dialogues.
But where in these commitments do we talk about holding OTHER movements accountable? Why don’t we “refuse” an anti-racism that leave out concerns of women?
And why should the FEMINIST movement not express similar outrage about, oh I don’t know, misogyny?
Why not “refuse” an anti-racism which mischaracterizes and silences both WOC and white women?
Why not “refuse” an anti-racism that states that certain bodies of women, focusing on WOC, are not acceptable? (h/t Renee)
Why not “refuse” an anti-racism that disparages older women?
In other words – my problem with these “refusals” and “commitments” is that they’re all about shame. In all the breast-beating, we’re doing the usual: holding ourselves super-accountable for every mistake other women make, doing very little to get beyond bemoaning to an actual action plan, and refusing (not a bad word in itself) to hold anyone accountable for putting our movement on the penalty bench, because we’re so busy falling on our swords.
Ultimately? This doesn’t help anyone. Women who’ve made some advancements are sidelined by guilt; women who desperately need their issues addressed stay on the sidelines because the players are so self-congratulatory for their dramatic expressions of shame that they’re not doing any real strategizing about how to actually implement intersectionality within the movement.
Yup, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. The same old shame, in a different wrapping. Moving on now.
Friday, July 4, 2008
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19 comments:
Intersectionality starts with listening. We cannot assume from the outside that we understand all women because we come from different cultures, races and class standings. It also involves understanding that you won't get it right the first time that you try to articulate as an ally simply because you don't possess large amounts of knowledge, but the important thing is to keep trying. It is when we refuse to even consider another point of view that feminism becomes narrow and side tracked. Awesomness Octagalore....truly awsomeness.
In other words – my problem with these “refusals” and “commitments” is that they’re all about shame. In all the breast-beating, we’re doing the usual: holding ourselves super-accountable for every mistake other women make, doing very little to get beyond bemoaning to an actual action plan, and refusing (not a bad word in itself) to hold anyone accountable for putting our movement on the penalty bench, because we’re so busy falling on our swords.
This is so right on. Thanks for writing this, Octo.
It is depressing, the amount of bad blood and sheer craziness (yeah, I said it) among women in the Obama vs. Clinton Wars. I know that the hit of sexism that we women all take in our daily lives adds up to hurt that can manifest in less-than-constructive ways. There is a lot of residual pain over how HRC's defeat went down. I get that , I share it. I'm trying to look at her campaign as another barrier broken down, a crack in the ceiling. Pain isn't a very good teacher, or a very good leader.
Oy, oy, oy. Octo, we are going to have to hash this out one day.
What you say here:
It’s not much to ask, IMO, that there be ONE place that centers gender. And that this not be assumed to only include certain women’s gender. Done right, feminism is about all women. But gender is the core.
is fine. Feminism is about all women and meeting them where they are, be they capitalist, socialist, WoC, college aged and in a sorority , on a music video set, sixty five and single. Wherever. But this is *not* the same as:
I confess that I’m exhausted. It’s true. I want to tackle issues discretely and not all at once. And so yes, while I’m focusing on my developing my feminist goals, and my feminist lens, my focus is more on issues affecting women qua women and not women qua members of communities of color or members of different economic classes. Call that naive.
That's from the feministe post. And women with that mindset are prevalent within feminism. These women are willing to degender us when it is no longer convenient to deal with our issues. That is where a lot of the argument comes in on the WoC side.
If we talk about sexual violence, and I talk about street harassment and you talk about date rape on college campuses, there are different causes, different people affected, and different strategies of attack. But we are still talking about the same thing.
But if we're talking about, say catcalling and a woman suggests we all call police on the aggressors and I start to explain why that may be problematic in communities of color, and that person informs me that they are talking about what would be best for all women and not women of color, well...fuck that feminism. That's the issue we run into. And to be quite frank, it isn't as if WoC aren't accustomed to going to do their own thing.
I understand your frustration with people ditching the label of feminist, but you also have to keep in mind that like feminism, "anti-racist" means a lot of things. So, there isn't necessarily the same kinds of discussions happening. For example, a lot of groups are *Not* anti-racist. They are anti racism toward their particular group.
Pro-black or pro-Asian or pro-Latino. Many of these groups have long standing issues with sexism and misogyny in the ranks, something that feminism would be able to help with, but since feminism is perceived as hostile to WoC that kind of crossover doesn't happen. I explained over on Feministe why the feminist label is an active liability for me in terms of organizing. For me, and many other women of color, claiming the term feminist is a radical action in itself. So to come to a community you love and fight for and to still have to deal with bullshit? Not cool.
Other considerations in anti-racist movements. Many of them are predominantly white, and often end up attacking cultural space for minorities. More places we don't want to go. As a result, I am even less involved with anti-racism and action groups then I would like to be. For Carmen (and me) it was easier to create a space where I want to be.
Finally, please remember that critics spend time criticizing things that they like enough to change. Me personally? I'm kind of done with mainstream feminism. More of the more interesting stuff is taking place off the grid - like Sudy's discussion of kryiarchy or Andrea Smith writing about conquest. Hip-hop feminism has been founded and continues to grow each year. And I want to be a part of that.
Hip-hop feminism is something I can take back to my community and apply it to help the women I know. That's what I care about. Endlessly explaining that race and class complicate women's lives? Trying to explain to people that my sexism is racialized? Dealing with people who don't understand my world and don't care to? Fuck that! Why is it that I can speak fluently on "white" issues in feminism, but so few "white" (or really, privileged-and-I-don't-care-to-think-about anyone-else-but-myself)feminists see no need to get fluent in my community and the actions that need to be taken to ensure that their efforts actually work.
Women of all colors need feminism. But feminism isn't interested in a lot of us. So are we supposed to fight an uphill battle forever?
I don't want to fight with supposed allies. I need to fight the actual enemy.
I don't think feminists need to hold on to shame or be accountable for every sin ever. Just fix the crap that's happening today. And listen to the refugees. I still hang in feminist circles because I really like my allies - I like Cara and Jill and Ann and Courtney and Samhita and Holly and Jack and Ilyka and Sarah J and I feel like they are a valuable person to have.
And I like reading views from people on the outside. Capitalists, like you, or Sex workers like Ren or Muslimah fems like Fatemeh who gets shit from every side. Their fight looks like mine. I'm just not sure of the worth in trying to bring everyone along.
Maybe it's the same deal we have over on Racialicious - we don't need to represent everyone. We don't like bigots on the site, and we have a lot of problems with people who come on the site to rep their ethnic group but generalize about others. Some want to argue about nothing. Some want to be sexist assholes and protest every fucking time we put up a discussion of issues that happen with black women that may *potentially* put black men in a negative light.
But we decided - fuck it. Our site isn't for everyone. And we don't need everyone to be involved to create change.
Maybe feminism needs to do that. If feminism is going to be for all women, meet them where they are. If feminism is going to be for the chosen few, put that sign on the door.
Renee -- thanks! Absolutely, it starts with listening. And that's what the "refusals and commitments" got wrong. A bunch of white women wringing their hands and drowning in shame gets us nowhere but backwards. Why not actually LISTEN to other points of view and work collaboratively within feminism and within other movements as well to address those members of each who do not feel included? I didn't see thing one in that document about how to actually address that, how to start listening.
SMMO, I agree. And I didn't know you had a blog! How do I get on the VIP list?
Latoya –
Good to see you.
Confused – why are you quoting a Feministe comment here when that’s not the POV I’m expressing? I have tried to bend over backwards to distinguish intersectionality (pro) and substitution (con). The quoted passage appears to sideline intersectionality. So I don’t own that as anything this post needs to defend.
I’ve explained that I see the solution as working towards implementation rather than breastbeating. For example – cross-race and cross-class groups of women organizing around various issues. As you know, my goal is to do pro bono career counseling focusing on lower-income women when I can afford to retire (thus, my “capitalism” as you refer to it). I get involved in a minor way now on career counseling for my alma mater focusing on lower-income LA schools, and work with parents and teachers in those neighborhoods. With more resources I think a good idea would be to form a group focusing around education and bringing together women from different classes/races. That’s only one example, as it’s one that I know most about, but it’s the kind of thing I think targets intersectionality within the movement much more than simple sword falling that can create some temporary good-feeling and then die off in meaningless self-congratulation and inaction.
Your example of how calling police may be a solution that doesn’t apply to all women falls squarely within what I would view as a feminist analysis. I do not feel feminism deals with subsets or averages but with the entirety of women.
Your point about how the word feminist is a liability in terms of organizing is interesting. Question, though – if it’s in the context of organizing WOC and you’re speaking from a context of credibility and of speaking for WOC, then don’t you have the opportunity to distinguish what “feminism” means to you (eg hip hop feminism as you note above) and what it could mean from them from the kind of thing they’ve been legitimately skeptical about and burned by? I don’t pretend to understand all the dynamics and if you could give some more detail of why it’s a liability coming from you, I might understand better.
I agree with you about: “I don't want to fight with supposed allies. I need to fight the actual enemy.” I don’t advocate that you fight an uphill battle, but to only get involved where you feel there’s real collaboration and productive effort. I agree, word battles are often empty and a waste of time, and that’s part of my point here.
@Octo -
I quoted that piece because everytime one of these threads comes up, you (and other fems) seem to still express bafflement at why people quit the feminist label - and I wanted to point out, yo - that's why! Maybe you were aiming your comments at feminists that are privileged who want to quit? I dunno. But the reason why I force myself to keep interacting on those threads is to keep repeating it until people get it. I am not mad at people who want gender to be the center of their analysis. I am mad at people who want to degender me at their convenience. And both types of people seem to come out in these discussions.
I am clear on your beliefs, which is why we still talk and engage. I just want to make it clear that it seemed like we read two completely different things into that thread.
Agreed with the sword falling point. That's something I haven't discussed often, but I need to write about - the fact that just mentioning "oh, WoC have problems with this" isn't really action or help. Proactive is much better as it fills a need. Like a job training program - extremely helpful!
Re: subsets of women - Yes, that's exactly it. We deal with different things, but that doesn't mean we have to prioritize some women's issues over others - we just need deal with all of them and look at the situation for what it is.
if it’s in the context of organizing WOC and you’re speaking from a context of credibility and of speaking for WOC, then don’t you have the opportunity to distinguish what “feminism” means to you (eg hip hop feminism as you note above) and what it could mean from them from the kind of thing they’ve been legitimately skeptical about and burned by?
Well, I do. That's what I do on the blog, though I haven't written as much as I'd like. That's my space, and that's where I can affect the most change. Real life is a bit of a different game though, because people aren't necessarily checking for that. With younger women who have limited exposure to feminism, I can catch them. I can reach them. Their opinions are not firm yet. But women of my generation and older are a lot harder to sway as most of them do have experience with feminism.
I had one friend who refused to look at anything with the feminist label - even though the hip-hop feminist anthology is by us and for us. The wounds of feminism cut that deep. With men of color, it is not the best tactic to mention feminism right away. Again, most woc are expected to choose, and you are assumed to be sympathetic to whites if you identify as a feminist. Instead, I discuss feminist ideals leaving off the terms. I rarely discuss patriarchy, focusing on the action to deconstruct. After trust is built, I can reintroduce feminism to the conversation, but not too early - to do so is to lose my credibility. Because of how feminism has represented itself, I have to make sure that I establish myself as of color *first.* If not, I'm suspect. A lot of what I am able to do depends on my position of authority and the other person's background. Does that make sense?
Latoya – thanks for the clarification.
I’m not baffled per se at why people feel like quitting the label. I get that various groups feel unincluded by the mainstream movement on the one hand, and the ego-focused-confessionals on the other. This post was more about looking at these confessionals, and specifically what the “refusals and commitments” really achieve (or don’t), than a discussion of the label.
But although I understand the impulse, I still don’t think it’s a good idea. I think it’s possible for a woman who wants to reach other women who feel left out of the movement, who herself feels that way, to keep the label while making clear her position to the other women. Namely, that she feels strongly that women are equal and that this is what feminism means. Being a feminist doesn’t mean being an apologist for the flaws in the movement, just as being a female bodybuilder doesn’t mean you condone steroids. There may be confusion but I think there’d be understanding. Denying a label that stands for that woman’s equality seems to me to be a larger cost – to her personally and to those she wishes to reach --- than that confusion. IMO.
Re your point about MOC – I understand, and I feel if you’re discuss[ing] feminist ideals leaving off the terms, that’s a smart strategy if you feel it’s what needs to happen to get things done. But it doesn’t mean you’ve quit the label, just that you are strategic. Your credibility is hard-earned and important. I’ve done the same thing at my job, with my partners who are not sympathetic to the label but can understand some of the ideals. It’s only been in the past three years (I’ve been with them 8 years) that I’ve tossed out the F word.
“ I need to write about - the fact that just mentioning "oh, WoC have problems with this" isn't really action or help.”
I’d love to hear more of your thoughts here.
“ A lot of what I am able to do depends on my position of authority and the other person's background. Does that make sense?”
Perfectly. Thanks.
Octo: I've resurrected a blog I had a few years back. It seemed silly to keep posting anonymously, FAIAP. Anyhow, as soon as something is there to read, you will be able to.
Because of how feminism has represented itself, I have to make sure that I establish myself as of color *first.* If not, I'm suspect.
It is unfair to blame feminism's bad reputation entirely on feminism itself. Enemies of feminism, and other progressive movements, have done a pretty good job of demonizing it.
Good point, SMMO. And wouldn't "how feminism has represented itself" include folks like bel hooks, Andrea Smith, and Steinem. Although folks like to cling to her Op Ed in the WaPo, why conveniently forget her collaboration with WOC Shirley Chisolm, Wilma Mankiller and Flo Kennedy on numerous initiatives, her being one of the most vocal Anita Hill supporters from feminist ranks, the fact that shem co-founded the Coalition of Labor Union Women, her strong advocacy for women with disabilities and children who had been sexually abused. Are we writing all that out as "not representing feminism well?"
reply @ smmo It is unfair to blame feminism's bad reputation entirely on feminism itself. Enemies of feminism, and other progressive movements, have done a pretty good job of demonizing it.
That is not the experience of WOC which I believe is what Latoya was pointing out. Feminism has never been concerned with the issues of women of color and as such we have been used as tools. There are countless examples that I could give you of the monolithic woman representing white middle/rich women. Feminism has lost the trust of WOC through its own doing and it needs to earn it back. To this day I identify as a womanist because I cannot completely own the label of feminist with the racist history that it implies. This saddens me however I will not reduce myself so that others may profit from my labor.
Renee -- I know you could give some good examples, but I could give some (like those above re GS collaborating with WOC) the other way. I don't think it's a monolith either way. I can understand the frustration but I'm not sure the alternative titles really mean anything different. Isn't it possible to be a feminist without espousing priorities of those feminists you don't identify with? I get the concern about being "used as tools," but if you're clear as to your priorities, how would that happen?
I couldn't say: feminists like Renee, here's a cite to her blog, feel that getting more women CEOs of F500 corporations is our top goal. I'd be laughed out of town. Let's say that were my top goal, which it actually isn't, how exactly could I enlist you in that effort if you made it clear that you did not see that kind of goal as among your feminist priorities?
@octogalore...I think the problem is in how you understand the distinction that I have made...for instance some women will just say that they are feminists, other feel the need for a further break down as say that they are post-structuralist or socialist feminists, these is how I feel about womanism...I am a womanist/feminist...womanism to me is just another branch on the tree of feminist theory, but being on this branch allows me to have a distinction that honors my experience and my beliefs. I am just as centered but I think that it is more honest in that it correctly identifies what perspective I am coming from.
That makes sense.
Excellent! Fifth time's the charm? Or is this the tenth? Hundredth for me.
Working my last nerve:
1) The implicit race trumps gender theme everywhere which always involves an absence of logic, balance and proportion. For example, 2) and 3):
2) People who say white feminists don't speak out for Michelle Obama when 100x more nonwhites did not speak out on sexism against HRC
3) People who say HRC is not the first woman running for President. She is the first woman WHO HAS A CHANCE TO WIN THE NOMINATION AND THE PRESIDENCY. Conversely, why is everyone acting like BO is the first black person running for President?
Donna -- 100% agree with all of those. Nobody is diminishing the efforts of other women running for President, but that is different from actually having a real shot. And yeah, as you said, people are much happier to give the "first" award to BO. Hmm, wonder why?
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