Friday, September 12, 2008

It's Still a Double Standard, Folks

Various feminists seem strangely fixated on claiming that a woman whose views they disagree with, and who is young (for politics) and attractive and without elite academic credentials is bad for feminism.

Now, as I said in the last post, I disagree strongly with SP’s social views and do not think they are good for women.

However, as a feminist I think there’s a lot wrong with highlighting certain women as bad for feminism where we wouldn't make a point of highighting men with those views as bad for feminism.

First of all, I don’t know of a Men Against Dan Quayle (or W) site like this. Or a Women Against [Insert Republican Male’s Name Here] site.

Nope. These rants are something… special.

I also notice that various female bloggers like to make fun of Palin’s intelligence.

Which strikes me as odd, as well.

Let’s take the recent Charles Gibson interview. The person who coined the term “Bush Doctrine” states: “The Times got it wrong. And Charlie Gibson got it wrong. There is no single meaning of the Bush doctrine. In fact, there have been four distinct meanings, each one succeeding another over the eight years of this administration — and the one Charlie Gibson cited is not the one in common usage today.”

Now let’s turn to the young (for politics), attractive man on the other side of the aisle. Does he get criticized for not-so-intelligent comments?

After all, Obama got many more softballs than Palin in his Charles Gibson interview in 2007, with no probes to reveal foreign policy ignorance, despite Obama’s suggesting he would meet hostile heads of state without preconditions.

Obama doesn’t get why we’d be paying HIGHER taxes than in the 90s even with maintaining the Bush tax cuts, even though this is pretty simple math based on inflation. Don’t they teach math at Harvard?

Obama claims seriously that a transparency bill co-sponsored with a Republican senator, was backed by everybody on both sides of the aisle, his only act of bipartisanship in his entire time in the Senate, was a serious substantive challenge.

On the night of the last primary, Obama unironically declared his victory as "the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal."

Obama’s grasp on his own opinions is hazy. From 2004 to 2008, he has gone from being for to being against decriminalization of marijuana, for to against health benefits for illegal immigrants; against to for mandatory minimum sentences;

Obama’s “lipstick pig” comment is strangely similar to a cartoon appearing days before he made the comment.

Finally, Obama failed at doing the five-minute Google search (ironically, given the context) and allowed his team to make a massively tasteless attack. Obama’s team mocked McCain for not being web and email savvy. One would think they might know that McCain was Chairman of the Senate Telecommunications Subcommittee. Articles in the MSM indicate that he reads emails every night. He doesn’t type them because of the injuries he incurred as a Vietnam POW.

I’m not being a Republican apologist here. McCain’s made mucho flip flops and gaffes as well. And of course, these are not mocked to the degree Palin’s are either.

Listen, folks. If women get mocked for things men don’t, if women get called toxic where men are simply called wrong, if women are called clumsy and foolish where men are just new to the town, if women “need to bone up” where men are “being advised by experts” on foreign policy, know what that’s called?

A double standard.

And when you have one of those, and the categories are male and female?

There’s a word for that too.

115 comments:

donna darko said...

Excellent. I don't understand the fuss about Palin at all. She's not weirder or scarier than VP Romney amd it would have been Rommey had Obama picked Clinton.

Poeschl said...

I'm a conservative/secular Republican who plans to vote for Obama, and I'd like to note that, even if there is evidence of left-leaning women, or feminists in general, applying a double standard when criticizing Palin, that fact by itself is unimportant in light of the other, indisputable fact that, since Palin might have to replace McCain as Commander-in-Chief, Palin's qualifications need to be put under the microscope before she is elected. So far, her lack of qualifications remains scary.

Regarding the Gibson interview: The fact that there have been at least four successive Bush Doctrines and that Charlie Gibson didn't describe the current one, should not obscure the more salient fact that Palin couldn't describe any of the Bush Doctrines at all, and instead gave the boilerplate answer of sanctions, cooperation with allies, and the urgency of bringing Georgia and Ukraine into NATO. I think Palin was trying to disguise her ignorance not only of the Bush Doctrine but of the continuing nuances in America's dealings with Russia. Palin's boilerplate answer leads me to suspect that she might actually think that, once Russia used force against an American ally, Russia automatically required the status of a "rogue state" like Iran, since the talk about sanctions, etc., is more applicable to countries like Iran with whom talks so far have led nowhere, rather to countries like Russia with whom we continue to have diplomatic relations and with whom direct talks have yielded some benefits.

In short, I believe that Palin revealed that she didn't know what she was talking about. Since she would be "only a heartbeat away from the Presidency," her ignorance is scary, and the nonstop scrutiny of her statements and professional conduct needs to continue, regardless of whether that scrutiny is motivated by a double standard employed by some of Palin's feminist critics.

Octogalore said...

Poeschl: to your larger point, of course the scrutiny as to technical qualifications of candidates (presidential and VP) needs to continue. Did I say it didn't?

She's not the only candidate whose lack of qualifications should be a concern, however. I am not claiming scrutiny should not occur, only that it should be evenhanded.

I disagree as to the Bush Doctrine. Once Gibson clarified what he meant, he got an answer. SHe is technically correct that: "that is the agreement when you are a NATO ally, is if another country is attacked, you're going to be expected to be called upon and help."

Also, your fixation on that issue, ignoring the answers as to economics (where I heard more specifics than on the other side of the aisle) suggests some bias.

Personally, I think there are many substantive reasons not to vote for Palin. I think the unequal treatment is more likely to cloud those and therefore to help the Republicans than to help anyone understand. Her positions are widely known. The "experience" issue, in the context of who we Democrats are putting forward, is a loser. Polls are clarifying that women are upset by the double standard. So your suggestion of continuing the scrutiny on one side of the aisle will only hurt the cause you claim to be supporting.

donna darko said...

Feminists against Palin would make more sense.

frau sally benz said...

I think there are two things going on here:

From the perspective of the feminist blogosphere and such, it's the fact that the media continues to frame her as some sort of representation of a new wave of feminism. Feminists just don't want her (anti-choice, pro-war, creationism, etc.) representing the rest of us. So while Obama might not get the same criticism, he is also not held up by the media as an example of a feminist.

From the perspective of the media, I think they are just almost in shock and trying to do all of the "vetting" they would normally spread out over a year or two into a couple of months. Let's face it, even though any one interview of another candidate wouldn't have too many tough questions, if you add all of them up and throw in some debates, there were a lot of opportunities out there for them to get to ask the tough questions. With Palin, there are only a couple of months, and actually less since the McCain camp has already declared that she won't be doing interviews or talking to the press.

So I wouldn't say it's exactly a double standard, I would say it's a very unique situation that makes it seem that way.

Octogalore said...

Sally -- re "it's the fact that the media continues to frame her as some sort of representation of a new wave of feminism," can you find 3 articles which do this? By "continues," you seem to be talking about a trend. That requires at least three articles in major publications. I'm open to discussing your reasoning, if you can back it up.

Octogalore said...

Donna -- sadly, I agree. I'd almost extend it to "Feminists against Women," in some cases.

SMMO said...

Octo, should I send you this book I found - Republican Women and the Feminists that Love Them Too Much? I don't this is a healthy relationship for you.

Any woman thrust into the public eye will be subject to misogyny. Of one kind if she's conventionally attractive, of another kind if she's not. A certain kind of sexism from conservatives, another from liberals. This is a shame and a disgrace, but not remarkable.

When Palin talks, to me, she sounds stupid. "That is because you disagree with her politically!" you will cry. Well, I don't think McCain sounds stupid. I don't think Pat Buchanan or Lou Dobbs or Tucker Carlson sound stupid. "Internalized sexism!" Well, I don't think Bay Buchanan sounds stupid, or Laura Ingram or Ann Coulter or Kay Bailey Hutchinson or Phyllis Schlafly or Condoleeza Rice. Perhaps if you spent less time looking for reasons to dislike Obama you'd notice that he is - and yes, their resumes are vaguely comparable - a rather intelligent man.

Feminists are angry not because Palin is attractive, but because her looks are being used to vault her over older, more experienced women and to slam other women. (There's one)

Feminists are angry not because Palin is a mother, but because her motherhood is being used to slam other women. Feminists aren't angry because she's a sportswoman (though I personally find hunting repugnant) but because conservatives have historically opposed women participating in sports and other males activities. This is hypocrisy of the most infuriating sort.

There's 2

Number 3

That was easy.

SMMO said...
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SMMO said...
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SMMO said...

Last link acting wonky, I'll put the whole thing here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/sarahpalin/2826120/Dick-Morris-Prepare-for-Sarah-Palin-versus-Hillary-Clinton-in-2012.html

Octogalore said...

SMMO – I’m not sure what “relationship” you are talking about, nor do I think anyone aside from yours truly has the authority or ability to determine what is healthy for me.

I’m sorry that you feel the misogyny women thrust into the public eye are subject to isn’t worth remarking on. I disagree.

I agree that Obama is intelligent, and I don’t spend time looking for reasons to dislike him. I’m concerned about various policies he’s advocated and how swiftly he’s altered position on a number of issue-– that’s my right. Even his current change of mind on Bush tax cuts – he’s not removing them until they naturally phase out at the end of 2010 – concerns me, even though it benefits me, because of the inconsistency of thinking it reveals.

The articles you cite do not, in fact, “frame her as some sort of representation of a new wave of feminism.” The first comes from a vaguely anti-feminist spirit and describes her as a threat to feminism. The Paglia article limits the discussion of Palin as representing a new kind of feminism to her “combining [conventionally understood] male and female qualities” – which, like her or not, I believe is the case. Paglia (of whom I’m no fan, so I don’t really see her views as all that authoritative) acknowledged that if indeed Palin impacted women’s civil liberties, that would be problematic.

Finally, Morris isn’t arguing that Palin’s some kind of new wave either. A careful reading (actually, even a careless one) reveals that his use of “authentic model of feminism” applies specifically to the fact that Palin got where she Is without any nepotism. (Note: I don’t think women who do benefit from that but who have their own achievements aren’t authentic; certainly many men have benefited this way and we all know Morris’ grudge against the Clintons).

SMMO – you know I always enjoy a good debate, but you also should know that attempting to call my bluff isn’t a slam dunk.

SMMO said...

Sorry, my first paragraph was meant to be light-hearted. No disrespect intended; clearly I'm no comedian.

As for the articles - I disagree. They certainly are touting Palin as a "new" feminist. Morris says it outright:"In Palin, you have an authentic model of feminism and in Hillary you have a counterfeit one." You made the claim that the media wasn't talking about Palin as a feminist. The articles I linked do just that. I'm not sure how parsing it to the nth degree disproves that.

You said wrt the WSJ article The first comes from a vaguely anti-feminist spirit ...

the PTA mom with teased hair and hips half the size of Hillary's

Next to the Clintons with their dysfunctional marriage, her fertility and sexually robust life could only emphasize the shriveled nature of the one-child family of the former Queen Bee of political female accomplishment.

That hardly seems vague.

donna darko said...

What do you expect from the MSM? Sarah Palin calls herself a feminist but only in the conservative sense. She's a governor! Her husband is a hands-on parent. She doesn't conform to feminine stereotypes. She rides a Harley, governs a state, hunts, whatever. Women need 30% representation for a critical mass of women's issues. Palin is representation for women and that is feminist but her policies are not.

donna darko said...

The Fourth Wave is not about Palin but the outcries about misogyny lead to the VP pick. The Fourth Wave is also like the Second Wave which was leftist and centrist women working together for equal pay, etc.

apostate said...

I personally wouldn't bother to talk about Palin at all if liking her was not being made out to be feministically acceptable (even desirable) by certain feminists I used to like.

They would never have gone to bat for Romney or any other traditional male Republican VP picked by McCain, which is why I wouldn't have talked about those male candidates as I am talking about Palin.

I don't talk much about McCain for a similar reason. No serious feminists - or sensible people - are making a case for McCain, which makes mocking him and discrediting him quite unnecessary.

I did talk about the negatives of Obama when liberals were making a case for him, and I attacked him in much the manner I am attacking Palin (except that I do believe Palin is not smart, whereas Obama is). So there is no double standard in my criticism. Palin simply happens to be a Republican woman that some liberal feminists are busy incomprehensibly admiring.

But, I'm done trying to talk anyone out of making a feminist/liberal case for Palin.
There isn't one and if people are insisting there is, they are either beyond rationality or simply have a different agenda. They are also a pretty tiny minority. The Palin feminists are not a new movement, thank fucking God.

apostate said...

I should note also, just from the point of view of intellectual honesty, that you have recently been linking to an awful lot of explicitly biased conservative sources.

Both NewsBusters and Cyber News Network - websites you've recently linked to - are propaganda vehicles of the Media Research Center. Both explicitly state in their About pages that they are working to counter "liberal bias" in the media.

I don't know if I need to tell you how very astonishingly laughable the canard of liberal bias in the media is.

Also, the National Review? The opinion page of the WSJ? Frickin' Krauthammer? Come on. These people are not known for their integrity when it comes to opining on matters of partisan politics.

apostate said...

That article on taxes is by Andrew Biggs, of the American Enterprise Institute.

Good God!

He also worked for the U.S. govt's Social Security Administration, and wants to dismantle Social Security, in the fine tradition of Republican operatives destroying government institutions from within.

Are we going to start taking lessons in economics from the same Republicans who were making the case (I read this last week) that the budget deficit is actually lower than it has been in 6 years, or some such nonsense?

These people are not honest. We know this.

donna darko said...

Would there be a Women Against Romney? Women Against McCain?

Palin is not a feminist though she calls herself one. It's nice she's not hostile to the term like other conservative anti-feminists.

No one's calling her a feminist though she is half of the goals of feminism: representation. There are many black women who like Condoleezza Rice simply because she's a black woman in a very high position, Secretary of State. Representation, equal pay, these are goals of the Second, Third and Fourth Feminist Waves.

donna darko said...

The DNC and Democratic Party chose Obama because he's black. This is also representation. He is also anti-black, re-authorizing NCLB and choosing tough on crime and sentencing Biden. He hasn't legislated anything to support his community. If he has, it was very little. Is there a Blacks Against Obama? NO.

Trinity said...

"even if there is evidence of left-leaning women, or feminists in general, applying a double standard when criticizing Palin, that fact by itself is unimportant in light of the other, indisputable fact that, since Palin might have to replace McCain as Commander-in-Chief, Palin's qualifications need to be put under the microscope before she is elected."

Yup.

While I agree with the general sentiment of this post... yeah, THAT.

And also, I don't see anything wrong with collecting letters from women who are alarmed, particularly given the way Palin's candidacy is being touted right now.

donna darko said...

I'd almost extend it to "Feminists against Women," in some cases.

Ha ha, i.e., The Third Wave which spends most of its time apologizing for sexism and criticizing feminism. You know there's something wrong when there are no similar movements such as Anti-racists against POC or Anti-racism against anti-racism.

donna darko said...

The double standard in criticizing Palin is she has more executive experience than Obama and Obama might be President.

Octogalore said...

SMMO – I agree that some article have spoken about Palin being a feminist. I do not read any of the ones you’ve linked to be seriously discussing her issuing in the fourth wave.

I agree with Donna – representation for women is feminist, even where social politics are those we radically disagree with and do not wish to promote.

Apostate, not sure whom you are referring to there wrt “certain feminists I used to like.” I have not personally stated that liking Palin is feministically desirable, and so can unequivocally state that I’m quite against both suggesting that liking her is a feminist plus and also that mocking her is a feminist plus. If you are reading this as a feminist cause for her politics, rather than a feminist cause for equal treatment of her, then you’re caught in a strawargument.

Also – yes, I read both right and left oriented publications, and feel free to link both as appropriate. I generally prefer the more liberal venues, but I find certain conservative publications useful in various specific areas. Charles K? I like some of what he says and dislike other aspects. I read the Journal right after the NYT, and if you think I’m convinced by global statements about the moral authority of one over the other, then I’m sorry to disappoint.

Donna – I agree with the feminist goals you cite, and those are goals I would like to further by my discussions here.

For analysis of why Palin’s social policies are diametrically opposite to those of many of us including myself (Trin – see comment #3 where I agree with the need to discuss this), there are plenty of places to go who make these arguments. I think all my readers are pretty convinced of this already. But for people who want more, there are plenty of other places to go where things are more Boolean, and if that’s your pleasure, you know where to find them.

donna darko said...

Roe v Wade. How many abortions will I need? vs. I was never beaten or raped in my life but the last eight months were the first time I felt beaten or raped. I don't like the either/or. For myself, basic respect for women is more important than holding Roe v Wade over my head. And representation re: Palin already improved women's lives. You know how? REPUBLICANS ARE OPPOSING SEXISM!!!!! and if she is VP, REPUBLICANS WILL CONTINUE TO OPPOSE SEXISM because they protect their own unlike Democrats.

Anonymous said...

Guys, u need to refer to the NATO charter, obviously, Sarah Palin hasn't cos an attack on a NATO country doesn't oblige America to retaliate against anyone; what u have to do is consult with all members, that's all, and we take it from there.
Here's what Sarah Palin has just done.
1) She has FORCED Russia to practically take defensive action to pre-empt Ukranian and NATO membership.
2) She has FORCED Sergei Lavrov to give a secret security guarantee to Iran (the meeting was the same day as her speech with Gibson).
3) Following her reasoning, of 'if Russia attacks another state there may be war with Russia', Russia is now compelled to defend militarily not just Iran, but also Syria and Venezuela from any American attack.

Now is that not inexperience? Is it a double standard to say that she has executive experience but also got a passport last year? How can someone like this be Commander in Chief?
On the Bush doctrine, at a time when American forces are now daily violating Pakistani territory, and yes, our civilians ARE being killed here, her ignorance of the doctrine of pre-emption is outrageous.
Octagalore (this is me, Jasmine, u know like as in the Pakistani Heretical Girl-apg), as much as i respect u, these are not 'technical questions', and why would u write them off as such?
If u compare Hillary with her experience of the Bosnian-Serb conflict and this woman, the gap is just huge.
On feminism, fine, Palin is very succesful, but does she want that success for other women, for single mums for whom another child might mean a life of poverty with no chance of escape, or respect for gay people who choose to stand aside from all the hollerbacking on religious-family values with all the moralizing on 'decent' behavior that implies.
The woman is a Republican and a conservative, politically, her gender is only relevant in so far as it dupes the unweary, scoops in millions of votes that would otherwise have gone to Obama and
allows the right to cynically appropriate and thus discredit feminist principals that are not held for the sake of expediency, but as a means to improve the status of women, something that has never historically been a priority of the Republicans, and is, judging Palin strictly on her merits, not even something she pretends to want to change.
ok, bye bye then, Jasmine

frau sally benz said...

I've been reading them around the web, so I can't remember all the ones I've actually read. However, a quick search led me to these:
Palin is a new face of feminism (this one comes right out and calls her a feminist in the first sentence)
Sarah Palin Feminism (this one is interesting b/c it's centered on Evangelicals, but basically starts off by saying the "feminist" reasons Evangelicals wouldn't support her)
Feministing had a roundup of headlines, including Analysis: Feminism's Next Wave
Sarah Palin's 'new feminism' is hailed
and A Feminist Dream at the GOP
The Feministing roundup also includes an NPR piece Sarah Palin: New Face of Feminism? (you should also listen to the related stories)

It's important to remember 2 things when considering articles or stories about Palin as a feminist: 1) most people only read the headline and don't even bother with the article and, 2) most people who actually start to read the article, never finish-they read the first couple of paragraphs and skim the rest. So while some articles might actually be neutral, people reading will likely not even get to that point because the title already seems to declare Palin a feminist.

I'm not a big proponent of giving or taking away the "feminist" label to people, especially women. If Palin sees herself as a feminist, then that's her prerogative. However, holding her up as a feminist is potentially damaging to the rights the majority of the feminist movement advocates for. It seems more and more that her policies are almost against women rather than pro-women, so I think that's where it really becomes an issue.

Octogalore said...

Jasmine, here's the larger Palin quote, which contradicts what you said:

"I mean, that is the agreement when you are a NATO ally, is if another country is attacked, you're going to be expected to be called upon and help.".

"What I think is that smaller democratic countries that are invaded by a larger power is something for us to be vigilant against ... We have got to show the support, in this case, for Georgia. The support that we can show is economic sanctions perhaps against Russia, if this is what it leads to."

"It doesn't have to lead to war and it doesn't have to lead, as I said, to a Cold War, but economic sanctions, diplomatic pressure, again, counting on our allies to help us do that in this mission of keeping our eye on Russia and Putin and some of his desire to control and to control much more than smaller democratic countries."

Next?

Octogalore said...

Sally: I appreciate your sharing those. I'm sorry; I still think nobody's arguing she's part of a fourth wave. Sure, people are saying she is a "new" kind of feminist. But the articles (even in the first couple paras) are discussing this more as if she's an anomaly rather than part of a trend.

Like you, I don't believe in taking cards away. I think someone's social positions can be adverse to feminist interests but they can still have a feminist approach in their business and economic lives. Palin seems to believe women are equal. She has badly misguided religious views which operate on women unequally.

Therefore, I don't think we convince anyone of anything by ranting about her supposed intelligence (which I think is triggered by the accent and people's knowing her non-Ivy background more than anything else), her appearance, or other factors. Nobody who isn't already convinced is going to see that as anything other than an irrational rant.

And isn't the goal to convince people who aren't already convinced? In the liberal echo chamber, we already do feel strongly that we want someone in the exec chamber who supports choice and other women's rights. The point is to communicate to moderate feminists and independents of both genders.

And these are exactly the folks who'll be turned off by the kind of approach that, let's face it, has helped push McCain ahead in the polls.

So if you wish, keep on with the biased analysis. But if you feel that's helping the cause you wish to support, I think recent events suggest otherwise.

jz said...

Hi,
Interesting to compare Gibson's question list for each of interviews with Obama and Palin:


list of the Obama questions:

How does it feel to break a glass ceiling?
How does it feel to “win”?
How does your family feel about your “winning” breaking a glass ceiling?
Who will be your VP?
Should you choose Hillary Clinton as VP?
Will you accept public finance?
What issues is your campaign about?
Will you visit Iraq?
Will you debate McCain at a town hall?
What did you think of your competitor’s [Clinton] speech?

And the Palin questions:

Do you have enough qualifications for the job you’re seeking? Specifically have you visited foreign countries and met foreign leaders?
Aren’t you conceited to be seeking this high level job?
Questions about foreign policy
-territorial integrity of Georgia
-allowing Georgia and Ukraine to be members of NATO
-NATO treaty
-Iranian nuclear threat
-what to do if Israel attacks Iran
-Al Qaeda motivations
-the Bush Doctrine
-attacking terrorists harbored by Pakistan
Is America fighting a holy war? [misquoted Palin]


softball vrs. hardball, I'd say.

I think the media biases are rooted in culture more than gender.

Anonymous said...

Octagalore, if Georgia a NATO country is attacked then ure 'supposed to help,' means help of a military nature in that specific context, no matter how much it is couched in more cautious language.
But this misses the point entirely. Georgia in NATO? Ukraine in NATO? This is basically a declaration of war on the Russian Federation. Obama opposes Georgian and Ukranian membership of NATO and he is wise and right to do so, as do the majority of Europeans. The governor of Alaska, oblivious to Russia's historical space, deciding war and peace on the European continent?
Palin is an amateur compared to Dr. Rice.

Renee said...

Various feminists seem strangely fixated on claiming that a woman whose views they disagree with, and who is young (for politics) and attractive and without elite academic credentials is bad for feminism... However, as a feminist I think there’s a lot wrong with highlighting certain women as bad for feminism where we wouldn't make a point of highlighting men with those views as bad for feminism.

I don't understand how you can possibly argue that Palin is good for feminism with the things that she supports. We may not specifically frame men as bad for feminism but the point is clear when we openly declare them to misogynists or anti-woman. I would like to point out that point is particularly apt for Palin because she claims to be a feminist. She clearly does not embody any feminist principles and for a movement that is already suffering with identity issues have a snakes oil salesperson claiming it is problematic to say the least.

SMMO said...

'm sorry; I still think nobody's arguing she's part of a fourth wave. Sure, people are saying she is a "new" kind of feminist.

Again, this is parsing to an absurd degree. The larger point stands, that Palin is being sold as a "new" feminist, a "good" feminist, you know, the kind that doesn't actually give a shit about about women. It is insulting, and painful - that is why feminists are angry.

How many abortions will I need? vs. I was never beaten or raped in my life but the last eight months were the first time I felt beaten or raped.

Yes, and we all know how much more important your feelings are than keeping abortion legal. The fuck?

donna darko said...

frau sally benz,

Your links are all MSM sources. What do you expect? Read bloggers like Reclusive Leftist, Octogalore and me instead.

Octogalore said...

Jasmine -- your reading of that section is incorrect.

JZ -- excellent point!

Renee -- in that quoted section, I don't say what you claim I am saying -- that she's good for feminism. I say "as a feminist I think there’s a lot wrong with highlighting certain women as bad for feminism where we wouldn't make a point of highlighting men with those views as bad for feminism." That is quite different.

SMMO -- I understand what you're saying, and respect your feelings of anger. The bottom line, though, is that biased posts or articles won't convince the people who need convincing. They'll turn the page and shake their heads. The negatives need to be expressed as we'd express them for a similarly situated man.

donna darko said...

SMMO, basic respect for women is more important or as important as Roe v Wade. For many women, the last eight months was the worst sexism they experienced in their lives. And this was just the primary. Obama was just getting started with how he treated women and GLBT during the primary.

donna darko said...

Misogyny should be treated as seriously as racism. This is why the Fourth Wave popped up and why Palin was picked.

No blogger said "Palin is the new face of feminism"

Ugh. But the misogyny during the primary lead to the Fourth Wave and the Palin pick. And if Republicans oppose sexism, it will help ALL WOMEN.

SMMO said...

The negatives need to be expressed as we'd express them for a similarly situated man.

Ultimately, I agree. But I also think blogs, feminist blogs particularly, are as good a place as any to express our anger at the absurd rise of this colluder. And, as we've discussed before, expressing strong and deeply, deeply felt disagreements with other women without resorting to the misogyny that is easily to hand for all of us is a tricky path.

And if Republicans oppose sexism, it will help ALL WOMEN.

If you honestly believe Republicans are sincerely opposing sexism in any real way I pity your naivete.

basic respect for women is more important or as important as Roe v Wade.

Reproductive rights IS respect for women. Without them, it's just politeness, or worse, chivalry.

Trinity said...

"If you honestly believe Republicans are sincerely opposing sexism in any real way I pity your naivete."

I agree, but I think the point was more that seeing people who are usually the most entrenched in anti-feminism even do or say one tiny thing about sexism being bad, even if it is ultimately done to be self-serving, that might affect some people's views. There are some *astoundingly* clueless people in the world.

As far as what I think about the net effect of Republicans opposing sexism because it happened to their pet conservative female... eh. I do think it may have some positive effect, but I definitely agree with you that hanging much on it (which I'm not sure Donna is doing) is really foolish.

frau sally benz said...

donna darko, I realize that it's MSM, that's sort of my point. I'm obviously not considering too much on one side or the other, because those people have already picked their "side." I read/watch things all across the spectrum, but most people aren't like me or you. Most people stick with MSM because it's accessible and it's what they know.

octogalore, I agree with you that there shouldn't be an attack on Palin's intelligence, appearance, etc. I have tried very hard to avoid speaking about Palin on my blog at all, because I think there's entirely too much attention paid to her right now. However, when I see her represented as a feminist (whichever wave, and however much of an anomaly) by the media and when I hear people speak of her (on the train, at work, etc.) as pro-woman when so much evidence indicates the contrary, it bothers me. That's my only problem here, really. So in that sense, I understand why some want to hold her to a higher standard. That's all I'm saying.

jz said...

to smmo and octo,
thank you very much for the references to Paglia and her Salon column. I found her to be a voice for my own views.

Octogalore said...

SMMO -- I agree with your larger point but quickly re colluder -- that's where someone deliberately joins with folks adverse to a good cause to thwart that cause. I think Palin's views are adverse to women's unequivocal reproductive rights. But I don't think she deliberately is seeking to undercut women; I think she genuinely has religious beliefs which make her feel she's in the right. I strongly disagree with those beliefs and therefore that conclusion, but I don't think we can claim she's knowingly conspiring, which is what being a colluder requires.

As for blogs being a good place to vent anger -- I do agree with that. I just want to be clear about my thinking on this. The social policies of Palin's that you believe are anti-woman -- I believe that too. To me, though, expressing my views to other clearly liberal people who have those same views is kind of useless and redundant.

So I get more interested in the feminist take-away, for a couple of reasons. First, it's less covered. There are the self-serving Repub views on it, but very few leftists making the nuanced point that you can disagree with her choice and related views and not support them BUT simultaneously support her right to be discussed in the ways a similarly situated man would be discussed.

Second, I find that where one is wavering, one tends to avoid discussions that appear personal and ranty and illogical, but listen to ones that seem sensible and grounded. So suggesting that we acknowledge that yeah, there's a double standard afoot, but we can make these arguments purely substantively, I think is actually a better way to reach people. It gets down to -- are we looking to just sound off to an echo chamber, or do we care about being persuasive?

donna darko said...

SMMO, it's sincere because if Palin becomes VP, Republicans will protect her against sexism because they take care of their own. And this protection will extend to all women.

In the primary, this protection of Clinton and Clinton supporters didn't gain traction because we're just Democratic women. But when the Republicans oppose sexism, it gains traction as we've already seen. This is why it's a big deal and it's sincere because Republicans take care of their own.

Poeschl said...

RE: Donna Darko's comment that Republican opposition to sexism is "sincere because Republicans take care of their own."

Look: I'm a lifelong conservative male Republican, from a long, long line of conservative Republicans in my family dating back to 1860, and I can attest that, since its founding in 1854, the GOP has been overwhelmingly the party of WASP males, and it continues to be so in 2008. The GOP will "protect" Sarah Palin from sexism only as long as it suits the interests of GOP males to protect her from anything at all.

It is important to remember that Sarah Palin, by her agreement with McCain so far, is required to limit her public campaigning to reading from speeches written by the McCain staff. The exception has been her interviews with Charlie Gibson, where she has not presented herself well.

Sarah Palin's male enthuasiasts in the GOP pretty much admit that she's mostly an effective stage prop for attracting a demographic that would otherwise resist the GOP in 2008. When a McCain staffer proclaimed that the GOP would win in 2008 not by running on the issues but by what voters could "take away" from each candidate (i.e., by how much voters could identify with each candidate), he was actually proclaiming that Palin is nothing more than a stage prop that the GOP "base" can identify with.

If Sarah Palin actually tries to express any views of her own that seriously deviate from McCain's "message," especially regarding immigration (or so I suspect), GOP males will find a way to shut her up. They practically have a muzzle on her as it is, as long as she reads from speeches written by the McCain staff.

This is simply to point out that the GOP is no more enthusiastic about women in 2008 than it has been in the past, except to the degree that those women serve the interests of GOP males.

Octogalore said...

Poeschl, based on all that, what's the continuing attraction for you in being Republican?

Poeschl said...

RE: Octogalore's question about my continuing identification as a Republican.

Offhand, my Republican identity is probably best explained as based on my continued hostility to Washington and to over-centralized government.

Specifically, the following are reasons that immediately occur to me for my Republican identity (such as it is):

First, I'm a fervent advocate of Federalism and states' rights. I am solidly aware that, during the Civil Rights movement after 1945, the principle of states' rights was used as a pretext for denying African-Americans the same political rights and economic privileges that whites enjoyed, and I agree that Federal intervention was required to change that. Nonetheless, I oppose the idea of 'metropolitan' government by which the entire country, at all levels, is governed by agencies in the national capital. I want political power to continue to be distributed through the semi-autonomous state governments, in order to preserve as much local autonomy as possible.

Second, my Republicanism is also connected to my views on taxation. Representative Richard Gephardt's televised comment in 1988, about tax reform, where he mentioned how much "we" (in Washington) will allow "you" (taxpayers) to "keep" of earned income, meaning the taxpayers' OWN earned income, drove me bonkers. It should be noted that the double quotes enclose Gephardt's own words as I recall them. Bill Clinton made a similar comment sometime between 1992 and 1996, when discussing his rationale for not returning a supposed Social Security surplus, saying "WE [in the Federal Government] know better than YOU [in the provinces]" how to use the surplus funds wisely. Again, the double quotes enclose Clinton's actual words as I recall them, and again, Clinton's comment drove me bonkers. I intensely oppose the Democrats' idea that I exist mostly to provide tax revenue for the Federal Government which will in turn provide entitlements for me as determined by politicians who are not under my control since they're outside my voting jurisdiction.

So, for me, Republicanism means a preference for political, fiscal, and economic autonomy as opposed to what I see as the Democrats' excessive preference for 'metropolitan' government centered in Washington.

On other issues, my conservativism and Republicanism actually vary with each issue; that's true especially for what are now called "social" issues such as gay marriage, abortion, etc. I oppose absolutist positions either for or against abortion, and therefore I support a woman's right to choose limited by certain conditions.

On the issue of gay marriage, I actually have no idea. I don't see what's wrong with civil unions. But I note that in Georgia, where I live, voters in all racial and socioeconomic segments, according to exit polls carried out during the elections in November 2004 (or 2006?), opposed the idea of the legal protection of gay relationships being "crammed down my throat," as one polled voter described it (as I recall). For gays to get the kind of legal protection that they prefer for their relationships really will require democratic consent through the legislatures, state by state, if there's not to be a backlash. That's how I see it, anyway. I really do believe that an issue as troubling and divisive as gay relationships are in the South needs to be resolved through genuine democratic consent achieved through state legislatures rather than through the fiat of court decisions. I honestly do believe that if Southerners and other social conservatives are given the opportunity to provide democratic consent over time, then gay relationships have a stronger chance of receiving the legal protections that gays prefer and also a great chance of social acceptance for gay relationships, than if the issue is resolved by Supreme Court fiat in Washington.

I don't agree with neoconservative foreign policy and actually see it as anti-conservative. I also don't agree with the U.S. foreign policy carried out starting with the Spanish-American war when we used military intervention as the chief tool of foreign policy, and began employing a rhetoric of "white man's burden" to justify our own self-aggrandizement.

But otherwise my continued Republican identity can probably be summed up as hostility to Washington. That's about the best explanation that I can provide right now.

Octogalore said...

Poeschl: thanks. That all seems quite consistent with your thoughts above. The fact that on social positions, which I think are incredibly important, my views are pretty much line item by line item aligned with the liberal side of Democratic, has geared me towards that end of the aisle. If there were a party with such social policies and conservative economic policies, I'd be checking that box. I'm of the George Landrith school on taxes.

Daisy said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Daisy said...

The thing is, Palin is being put out there AS a woman, AS a pro-life mother of five, etc. Then when criticized on those grounds, they can say "you're being sexist!"--okay, then leave the "she didn't have an abortion!" politics at home.

If abstinence and abortion are her subjects of her expertise, she should know those are "women's subjects"...

Just my 2 cents.

And I loved it... I think since they also wrote it:

Palin/Clinton Saturday Night Live spoof

donna darko said...

Poeshl, I'm not naive. Opposition to sexism will be a subsidiary strategy in order to serve the white male leaders in the Republican Party. If Palin becomes VP, they will continue their feminism/opposition to sexism.

Kim said...

I get what you're saying in this post, Octo.

But I gotta say, Palin is rather "bad for women" in that she appears to be presented to us as The Type of Woman Who Deserves to Be (only) Vice President. (Certainly not President -- that's a man's job, after all.)

As opposed to Hil, of course.

Would the attacks be so harsh if she were male? I don't think so, no. So again, I do get your point.

But -- ugh.
Getting Palin as the first woman in the white house makes smack my forehead in the "V8" kind of way: "I could have had a Hillary!"

What a poor substitution -- and don't think I don't see this, McCain.

Anonymous said...

Poeschl -

You are a libertarian, by that post. Like all the parties, there is a spectrum, where you fall on the libertarian one, I don't know.

SMMO said...

very few leftists making the nuanced point that you can disagree with her choice and related views and not support them BUT simultaneously support her right to be discussed in the ways a similarly situated man would be discussed.

I think that's beginning to change. I though Anne Lamott's article at Salon today was personal and angry, but rational and not sexist. This is an incredibly emotional election, for a variety of reasons. We need to acknowledge that, as well as - as you say - make our cases with honor and with brains.

I've been thinking hard about Palin these last few days. Running for POTUS or VPOTUS is something that very, very few people have the skill set for. I certainly don't. I don't think Palin does either. I think she's out of her depth. It's almost as if the Republicans chose someone out of their depth on purpose, to prove to America that women aren't capable. It was OK the GWB was dumb because he was a man. A dumb woman sends an entirely different message.

Octogalore said...

SMMO -- I tend to think that if you can balance a state budget (http://www.tax.state.ak.us/sourcesbook/index.asp), get over 80% approval ratings (Bush's were in the 50s as governor of TX), and get there without nepotism (Bush didn't), "dumb" is an unfair characterization.

I don't think she's as eloquent or academically credentialed as Obama or has the IQ of Clinton (either of them), but "dumb?"

It's totally legit to argue she isn't qualified -- why not stay with that? "Dumb," sorry to be repetitive, is just going to energize her supporters and make independents wonder about bias. It's not going to be persuasive.

Octogalore said...

RE Lamott's piece -- she's a great writer. I'm a big fan.

But. Although she stated: "From now on, when working for Obama, talk about Obama, talk about his policies, the issues, the economy, the war in Iraq, poverty, the last eight years, Joe Biden. You don't have to mention Crunk Petrol, or his sidekick, Shaver Razorback"?

She pretty much used the article to do exactly the opposite.

SMMO said...

On Palin's budget balancing prowess:

http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/17/moo/?em

donna darko said...

Like I said in the comment #1, I don't understand the fuss about Palin. If McCain has the same policies, go after the top of the ticket instead. And Romney would have been a worse VP pick for women.

If you can't talk about McCain or Romney with this much venom, the problem is you.

Palin also seems pro-woman and seems to stay our of other women's business. She's supportive of Clinton and gender equality and is pro-life but said she doesn't want to change laws for other women whereas Obama obviously hates women and wants to control women or at least have them serve him.

I changed my mind. Palin is a conservative feminist and Obama is not a feminist at all.

SMMO said...

Obama obviously hates women

This kind of remark really undercuts the argument that others are being venomous. Also, if anyone who dislikes Palin is a misogynist, doesn't it follow that anyone who dislikes Obama is a racist?

Trinity said...

Donna,

Why do you say "Obama obviously hates women and wants to control women or at least have them serve him."

I honestly have no idea why you'd think this. Can you point me to the policies of Obama's that you see as anti-woman?

donna darko said...

Here's the trick. Ignore the policies and look at his BEHAVIOR. Look at how he TREATS Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin compared to how he treats McCain with the utmost respect.

Barack Obama is an extreme misogynist. You just haven't been on the receiving end yet (Clinton supporters and now Republicans).

donna darko said...

As I've said many times on my blog, you can tell someone is sexist when you compare how they treat women to how they treat men in similar positions. It's not what he SAYS because he's a master rhetorician and knows how to avoid SOUNDING completely sexist.

Look at his BEHAVIOR in comparative situations. He treats Clinton and Palin like shit (extremely dismissive, condescending, well, he treats women like shit) and McCain with the utmost respect.

Poeschl said...

RE: Donna Darko's comments about how Obama "treats" Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin as compared to how he "treats" McCain.

Despite Donna Darko's dismissal of Obama's campaign rhetoric, there is no contrast between Obama's campaign rhetoric and his "treatment" of people -- his rhetoric is in fact the only way he can "treat" anyone so far.

By that standard of treatment, Obama has been fairly respectful of Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin. But recently his "treatment" of McCain has turned slightly sarcastic, as noted in a recently article on Slate.com authored either by John Dickerson or Timothy Noah, as I recall.

If Donna Darko's point is to carry any weight, she should provide concrete examples of how Obama has "treated" Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin in any way other than through his campaign rhetoric.

Poeschl said...

To add to my prior question about examples of how Obama "treats" Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin:

Donna Darko claims that Obama "treats" Clinton and Palin extremely dismissively and condescendingly. Well, since the only way Obama can "treat" anyone so far is through his campaign rhetoric, can Donna Darko provide any examples of where Obama has spoken of Clinton or Palin dismissively or condescendingly?

Other than through his campaign rhetoric, the only other way Obama could conceivably "treat" anyone would be through his proposed policies, but Donna Darko has already instructed us to ignore his proposed policies and look at his "behavior."

But, to repeat myself, Obama's only "behavior" so far has been in his campaign rhetoric, and that's between pretty respectful of Clinton and Palin.

donna darko said...

Donna Darko claims that Obama "treats" Clinton and Palin extremely dismissively and condescendingly

Yes. That's it. I've also noticed that he treats Palin with slightly more respect than Clinton because he LIKES REPUBLICANS. He treats McCain with great diffidence and respect. Obama's rhetoric toward McCain is extremely respectful even when he disagrees whereas his rhetoric towards Clinton was EXTREMELY DISMISSIVE, CONDESCENDING AND DISRESPECTFUL. And SEXIST compared to his rhetoric towards McCain.

Barack Obama is sadistic towards women as we can see in his continued treatment of Clinton and Clinton supporters.

donna darko said...

Narcissists lack empathy. This is why he is sadistic towards women and GLBT.

Look at how he continues to treat Clinton and Clinton supporters.

Exholt said...

"She's not weirder or scarier than VP Romney amd it would have been Rommey had Obama picked Clinton."

Funny you say that as I lived in Massachusetts while he was governor. While his pro-development orientation caused problems in many neighborhoods like the one my friends lived in along with his attempts to undermine state worker protections......he was also roundly criticized by the local Republicans for being pro-choice and allowing mandated universal healthcare coverage to be effected during his tenure. Some GOP members also attacked him for his "heretical" Mormonism. The consensus from most of my Massachusetts resident friends was that he didn't do very much for average citizens such as themselves.

On the other hand, Sarah Palin is far to the right of McCain on many issues. This doesn't come as a surprise to a friend who lives in Alaska as he mentioned that most Alaskans outside of certain cities like Juneau tended to vote overwhelmingly Republican and that Palin grew up in a region known to many locals as Alaska's Bible belt.

One of them is in believing that "intelligent design"(a.k.a. creationism) should be taught alongside evolution in science classes.....something that would not only undermine scientific education...but is also an attempted end run around the First Amendment's separation of church and state doctrine which prohibits government institutions from showing preferences for any particular religion...such as teaching the fundamentalist Protestant Christian founding myth.

Not only is this an effective attack on non-Christians who should not feel themselves treated as second-class citizens by being taught "intelligent design"...it is also a reformulated attack on science education and evolution that has been going on since Darwin's "Origin of the Species" and the infamous 1925 Scopes trial. Someone who holds such views should be viewed with deep skepticism and concern, especially when constant school board attempts to introduce "intelligent design" despite numerous court rulings against it are making the US into an anti-intellectual anti-science laughing stock of the world.

Also, McCain's position on abortion would allow for exceptions in cases of rape, incest, and when the mother's life is threatened whereas Palin's would only allow the exception in the very last case.

Moreover, I am deeply troubled by persistent allegations that while she didn't have a banned book list that she in her first term as Wasilla's mayor did ask the local librarian about how would a parent go about getting a book banned because it offended his/her sensibilities and later attempted to get the librarian fired when she forthrightly stated that she would stand against any book censorship attempts by individuals or groups. The outcry from the town was such that the attempt failed and Palin was forced to back down on her unconstitutional behavior. Government officials have no business telling librarians what books should/should not be on the shelves.

In addition, the troopergate allegations are another manifestation of possible power overreach/abuse of power. No matter the perceived excessive leniency of the trooper's and punishment for his offenses...which were adjudicated well before Palin and her Public safety Commissioner were sworn into office, Palin and her staff had no right to revisit a matter that was already resolved under due process and civil service regulations...however unsatisfactorily.

If those allegations are proven true....and what I've read so far from the Alaskan press and some public state records is already troubling, the alleged actions of Palin and her staff are not too different from corrupt political practices of early to late 19th century American patronage politics where one's government job down to the individual low-level professional or clerk was given and taken away solely on the basis of whether the elected official and his cronies in power liked you or not with little regard to professional qualifications or competent performance. Excesses from such practices were one of the main reasons why civil service reforms started to be enacted in the 1880s.

belledame222 said...

apostate said...

I personally wouldn't bother to talk about Palin at all if liking her was not being made out to be feministically acceptable (even desirable) by certain feminists I used to like.

They would never have gone to bat for Romney or any other traditional male Republican VP picked by McCain, which is why I wouldn't have talked about those male candidates as I am talking about Palin.

I don't talk much about McCain for a similar reason. No serious feminists - or sensible people - are making a case for McCain, which makes mocking him and discrediting him quite unnecessary.

I did talk about the negatives of Obama when liberals were making a case for him, and I attacked him in much the manner I am attacking Palin (except that I do believe Palin is not smart, whereas Obama is). So there is no double standard in my criticism. Palin simply happens to be a Republican woman that some liberal feminists are busy incomprehensibly admiring.

But, I'm done trying to talk anyone out of making a feminist/liberal case for Palin.
There isn't one and if people are insisting there is, they are either beyond rationality or simply have a different agenda. They are also a pretty tiny minority. The Palin feminists are not a new movement, thank fucking God.


Yup.

Which is not to say that there isn't anti-feminist rhetoric being used against Palin, necessarily, which I think was the main point of the OP. Whether it's coming from Obama himself, I don't know--I haven't been following closely enough to really tune into where I feel like I can ascertain "lipstick on a pig" was actually coming from; but I mean, there've been dogwhistles all around, it'd disappoint me and piss me off but wouldn't totally surprise me.

that said, the idea that we -not look at the policies- and instead focus on how -nice- Obama is or isn't to his female opponents is, um, -boggles silently-

as indeed is the idea that Roe v Wade isn't that important because...yeah, I'm sorry, my brain's exploded all over the place, I can't deal with that right now.

anyway, yeah, my position's pretty much the same as before: policies DO matter (hello?)* and Obama's, as were Clinton's, are so much better -for women- (among others) that there's no way I'm throwing a spite vote to frigging -McCain- of all people or the Republicans; I don't care -who- he picks as veep, -no one- would change that; but certainly least of all someone who has a right-wing record like Palin's ffs.

*and no, I don't want to have a beer with ANY of these people, and you can't make me.

belledame222 said...

and frankly, Romney's pretty fucking scary; the idea that Palin's no worse is among the more "damning with faint praise" ideas that I've heard in a while. yeah, and any of them -might- be marginally less scary than Huckabee; and any of -them- including Huckabee is probably less scary than, I don't know, someone from the BNP? Genghis Khan? but, um, this is not exactly what I would call a sterling recommendation or even a legitimate reason to lay off (at least with shit that's fair and relevant, I don't mean typical sexist crap like mocking her looks obviously)

Poeschl said...

RE: Donna Darko's antipathy to Obama and support for McCain/Palin.

Donna Darko, if you plan to vote for McCain/Palin because you actually do prefer the policies advocated by McCain/Palin, then just come out and say so, and this thread can then debate the merits/flaws of the candidates' respective platforms.

So far, you've said, "Here's the trick. Ignore the policies ..." That is indeed quite a 'trick,' because starting in January 2009 this entire country is going to be governed, ideally, by policies rather than the private biases of the officeholder.

If you're implying that Obama has no real intention of actually implementing pro-woman policies stated in his platform, then present a convincing case for what his actual policy is likely to be.

So far you've merely repeated unsupported assertions that Obama is a narcissist, sadist, misogynist, etc. If you want us to take your assertions seriously, then you need to provide evidence. So far you haven't done that.

Poeschl said...

RE: Donna Darko's arguments against Obama.

One further point: Donna Darko needs to stop being disingenuous in her responses to commenters on this thread.

In the previous ten comments or so on this thread, every time Donna Darko is called upon to back up her arguments against Obama with evidence or analysis, Donna Darko responds by distracting us to a different line of attack.

When Trinity asks Donna Darko to state exactly which of Obama's proposed policies are anti-woman, Donna Darko responds, "Here's the trick. Ignore the policies and look at his BEHAVIOR. [etc.]" And then in Donna Darko's next comment, she tells us to ignore what Obama says (because he's supposedly a master rhetorician) and to instead concentrate on how he "treats" Palin, Clinton, and Clinton supporters.

Then I point out that so far, Obama's 'behavior' on campaign is necessarily limited to what he says on campaign, and that what he has said so far is fairly respectful towards Palin and Clinton. I also ask Donna Darko to provide evidence of what Obama has actually said that is misogynistic.

Donna Darko responds to my request for evidence, not by providing the requested evidence, but by simply repeating her unsupported assertion that Obama "treats" Palin, Clinton, and Clinton disrespectfully.

I can only conclude, at this point, that Donna Darko already knows that there is no evidence of misogyny in Obama's platform or rhetoric, and that's why Donna Darko continually responds either by distracting the thread to a different argument or simply restating her unsupported assertions about Obama's supposed "misogyny."

Donna Darko, that doesn't work. When people repeatedly ask for evidence, you need to provide it, or else people will write you off as a Republican troll. Your advice, "Here's the trick. Ignore the policies ...", actually revealed your agenda, but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. That apparently was a mistake.

Look: If you actually do support the GOP platform, then just say so, and we can debate the respective platforms.

But, up to now, your continuing disingenuousness undermines your credibility as an advocate for McCain/Palin, so your methods don't help the GOP, either, much less dissuade anyone from voting for Obama/Biden.

Provide some evidence for Obama's supposed "misogyny" or else argue straightforwardly for the GOP platform, and then this thread can see a serious debate.

donna darko said...

Poeshl, I'm not voting for McCain. I'm abstaining.

donna darko said...

Poeshl, his condescension and dismissiveness towards Clinton and her supporters is constant. It continues today. He still thinks he doesn't need working class and women voters. I'm not being disingenuous at all.

I've written nonstop about the misogyny for the last eight months on my blog. The MSM has written constantly about it also. He did not said anything about the misogyny of the last eight months which benefitted him to gain the nomination. He has not apologized to Clinton or her supporters and has not reached out to Clinton supporters. I don't need to write any more about the misogyny and corruption in the primary. You can look at my 1000+ posts, most of which are about the misogyny and corruption of Obama and the DNC. It should be clear after 1000+ posts there was misogyny and corruption in the primary.

Obama continues to ignore these two facts and will therefore lose.

donna darko said...

If I were disingenuous, would I have written 1000+ posts about the misogyny and corruption of Obama and the DNC?

Just look through the last eight months of my blog.

donna darko said...

And Barack Obama is a narcissist, an extreme misogynist and a sadist.

You just haven't been on the receiving end... YET. If you were a Clinton supporter in the primary especially a die-hard one of which there are millions, you would know Barack Obama is a narcissist, an extreme misogynist and a sadist. That he is hateful and hates everyone but himself.

donna darko said...

The last eight months is the worst sexism I experienced in my life and I've read comments by many Clinton supporters who feel the same. Barack Obama is brutal towards women and GLBT and anyone else who gets in his way.

Trinity said...

"If you were a Clinton supporter in the primary especially a die-hard one of which there are millions"

Thanks for letting me know I wasn't a Clinton supporter. I guess my ballot wasn't enough.

donna darko said...

Trinity,

Didn't you sign on late to her campaign? I have eagle eyes, you know.

Trinity said...

Sign on late? I don't know what you're talking about. I was one of the people who wanted her to run way back when.

Exholt said...

""She's not weirder or scarier than Huckabee amd it would have been Huckabee had Obama picked Clinton.""

Considering one of the key reasons why Palin was selected, I believe this corrected statement is far more likely to be accurate.....especially considering Romney has been accused by right-wing Christian fundamentalists within the GOP of being "too liberal" based on his prior political positions/record as a Massachusetts senatorial candidate and Massachusetts Governor and "heretical" because of what they considered to be his "freaky" Mormon faith.

Picking Romney would have strengthened his already strong support among fiscal conservatives while further angering the religious right folks....especially the loudly vocal bigoted anti-Mormon fringe.

McCain needed someone with strong social/religious conservative cred considering he lost the endorsement of Christian fundamentalist right figures such as Dr. James Dobson until Palin was picked as VP. Once she was picked, he was clearly energized to support the GOP ticket.......remarkable considering he initially declared he was going to sit the election out in frustration with McCain's "moderation" on social issues.

In short, Palin is THE candidate of the religious right who they hope will help facilitate their aim of turning the US into a theocratic state ran along their religious lines.

Considering how their worldview reminded me of the ideological dogmatic narrow Catholic/Christian worldview which permeated Europe during the Middle Ages, I fear for the future of this country as a pluralistic Republic respectful of Constitutional concepts such as civil liberties and due process should McCain-Palin be elected....especially considering the Bush-Cheney record of the last 8 years.

exholt said...

Whoops.

Should have also added the following:

It should also be scary considering Palin's own sketchy record on respecting Constitutional concepts of pluralism and due process during her tenure as mayor and governor.

Moreover, McCain and Palin's campaign promises to bring transparency to Washington is laughable considering how Bush-Cheney White House officials used RNC provided email servers to conduct official business so they won't be subjected to public record disclosure regulations and similarly....how Palin and her staff resorted to using web-based email accounts to conduct state business to also circumvent those public disclosure requirements.

Consideringly, the behavior of Bush-Cheney or Palin is as far from favoring transparent open government as one could get....

Speaking of which, why isn't there a law mandating that all electronic communications related to an elected official's duties be done on government provided servers which are subjected to public disclosure laws???

Don't we as the people have the right to know what our elected officials are doing so we can hold them accountable if that should prove necessary???

SMMO said...

And Barack Obama is a narcissist, an extreme misogynist and a sadist.

Donna, it isn't enough to just say it. You have to back it up. Otherwise, you simply prove right those who say women are too emotional, too irrational and take things too personally to be in power.

belledame222 said...
This post has been removed by the author.
donna darko said...

SMMO,

What the heck do you think I've been screaming about for the last eight months on blogs and my blog?

Obama is SOOOOO going to lose this election because of his blind spots to women and GLBT.

Trin,

Me too for 16 years but you weren't a hard core supporter and you aren't among the 6 million PUMAs.

donna darko said...

PUMAs are mostly women and GLBT and for good reason.

We were the first Obama threw under the bus.

I think it's related to his church (Wright's) where misogyny and homophobia are ingrained.

donna darko said...

From the primary and how everything was carried out, I've concluded the Obamas are cultural nationalists. For example, Obama and Wright helped organize the Million Man March and Michelle Obama said most of the men she's known put themselves first, God second, family third and women fourth.

SMMO,

If you're really interested in what I have to say, read my politics, misogyny, sexism and feminism tags on my blog.

Octogalore said...

"Which is not to say that there isn't anti-feminist rhetoric being used against Palin, necessarily, which I think was the main point of the OP."

That's right. It's a continuing theme on here that feminism isn't just about women we feel philosophically aligned with, which in the case of me and most readers here would be socially liberal women. Using examples like Palin and Cindy McCain is a good way, for me, to demonstrate that feminism's bigger than just "be nice to your friends."

Also, I'm not endorsing either candidate this time around. But my failure to feel enthusiastic about Obama is only partially because I feel he didn't stand up hard against sexism in the primary or demonstrate a sensitivity to female voters by his VP choice. I have other reasons not connected with feminist issues. I don't feel he merits "extreme misogynist" or "sadist," but I don't think someone who was gung ho about John Roberts (before an aide told him not to be) is a big-time feminist, either. But then, neither is McCain.

So I don't echo all Donna's sentiments, but having experienced pile-ons online (recently even!), I don't think they are all that productive. Donna has been pretty prolific in her writings on these topics for the past year or so on her blog and others. Agree or disagree, but at a certain point it's not worth it, and I think we're at that point.

SMMO said...

I'm just going to say this and then push off Octo, but I think characterizing this thread as a "pile on" is pretty unfair.

Also, Donna's comments here wrt Obama have been ugly . If we believe Palin deserves not to be slandered - and I certainly do - doesn't he deserve the same?

Octogalore said...

SMMO -- that's fair. I don't think folks are piling on in the sense of getting personal. So I'm not criticizing anyone for voicing their views respectfully, as everyone here has. I think, though, that challenging someone who has been writing on this issue for some times and has articulated her views as to why she thinks BO is a narcissist and antifeminist many times, is kind of pointless. You don't need to be runner up in Jessup Moot Court Regionals Circa 1996 (bows lamely) to see that nobody here is going to budge from position.

And "Also, Donna's comments here wrt Obama have been ugly. If we believe Palin deserves not to be slandered - and I certainly do - doesn't he deserve the same?" is true but out of place, esp considering I just said I disagreed with and found inaccurate the harshness in describing Obama.

This isn't a big feminist blog, it's my tiny little space, and so I don't feel the need to be all things to all people/feminists. I have found that in most "feminist" environments, other liberal issues get more significant play than those issues give to feminism. My goal here is to give feminism that focus. While I think feminism goes hand in hand with intersectionality, I do not believe that feminist intersectionality should remove women from the picture.

So while, as I said in my earlier comment, I do not believe BO merits the harsh words spoken here, I'm going to say that in a comment rather than a post. There are a ton of places to go where you can hear people with my liberal creds (or likely, much better ones!) defend Obama on equal treatment grounds. There aren't many where you can get that for Palin, and sadly there weren't a ton where you could get that for Hillary Clinton, during the primary. For better or worse, in my house, I like to serve stuff that interests me, and that's usually off the menu.

Octogalore said...

MrO, for some reason, refuses to comment here or to participate in bloglandia generally -- but I thought it interesting to share one of his comments just now:

"women defending women they like and allowing women they don't like to be stereotyped isn't feminism. It's recess."

He's no Susan Faludi, but he's got some potential chops, no?

donna darko said...

Come on, Octo, the way Obama expects Clinton to behave after the brutal primary is SADISTIC. That he expects her to raise money for him when he promised to pay back her debts to vendors and did nothing of the sort, that he expects her to campaign for him when he stole the election from her, that he expected her to take down another woman, Palin, who was put in place because he was sexist towards her in the first place, IS SADISTIC, EXTREME MISOGYNIST BEHAVIOR. The way he gave Clinton the finger and called Palin a pig and a stinky fish is EXTREME MISOGYNIST BEHAVIOR.

The way he HAS NOT APOLOGIZED FOR ANY OF THE MISOGYNY IN THE PRIMARY TOWARDS CLINTON SUPPORTERS YET EXPECTS US TO VOTE FOR HIM AND DONATE MONEY TO HIM IS SADISTIC TO CLINTON SUPPORTERS. THE WAY HE CONTINUES TO ALIENATE THE WORKING CLASS AND WOMEN AND NOT DO ANY OUTREACH YET TOOK US FOR GRANTED
IS SADISTIC BEHAVIOR.
The way he behaved towards women and GLBT is extremely misogynist and homophobic.

You know I'm not yelling at you but feel strongly about this. It's not ugly descriptions, IT'S THE TRUTH. And you know I can go on and on.

donna darko said...

The way he HAS NOT SPOKEN UP AGAINST THE SEXISM IN THE PRIMARY THAT CONTINUES UNABATED FOR EIGHT MONTHS IS SADISTIC BEHAVIOR.

And he's a freaky, dangerous narcissist. You know it, Octo.

donna darko said...

I'm not yelling at you.

Check this out from The Confluence:

The really bad news for Obama in this polling data is that McCain is leading him by 2 (44-42) points among all women when asked who had a “better understanding of women and what is important” to them. This is up 36 points from July when the same Lifetime poll showed Obama leading among women by an astonishing 52%-18%. I wonder what could have caused that?

See, I'm not alone.

donna darko said...

An astonishing 36 point switch from the last three months.

Octogalore said...

Donna -- the behavior of Obama and his campaign during the primary and thereafter is one of the many reasons he isn't getting my vote. But I don't think he's something new in the area of male politicians' sexism, more like same-old, same-old. His policies (pro choice etc.) more than his actions (lack of equal pay for female staffers, "sweetie," treatment of Clinton and Alice Palmer before her) are woman-friendly, which means to me that he's more about getting elected and attracting his base than being intrinsically feminist. But in that regard, he's similar to others before him. I feel that Bill Clinton, infidelity notwithstanding, took more controversial pro-woman positions.

So I'm no fan. But using words like "sadistic" and "extreme misogynistic" stops the substantive debate and focuses on the harshness of those words. There's no point to that.

SMMO said...

But using words like "sadistic" and "extreme misogynistic" stops the substantive debate and focuses on the harshness of those words.

And let's not forget the race-baiting:

I've concluded the Obamas are cultural nationalists. For example, Obama and Wright helped organize the Million Man March

So, yeah. Not convincing me.

SMMO said...

for better or worse, in my house, I like to serve stuff that interests me, and that's usually off the menu.



Well that's fine, but I really wanted to hear your opinion on the economic mess! What about me and MY needs, huh?

Re Mr. Octo: kudos. I still think there is a way to express repugnance for another woman and maintain one's feminist principles. The personal is political, but is the political personal? Difficult stuff. When I see SP standing over a dead moose I feel repulsion. That has to be OK, on some level.

Octogalore said...

SMMO -- re MrO, I don't think he meant that one cannot criticize any woman ever, which in itself would be unequal treatment, but that stereotyping is a problem. So if you don't like something substantive about Palin, you should have at it. I'm sure I'd agree with a lot of it. The political doesn't have to be personal. If you'd feel the same way seeing a male VP candidate standing over a moose, I think you're fine to feel however you feel.

Economic crisis? Oh, gosh, I am lazy and a big firm in SF is about to dissolve, so I'm trying to get my greedy little hands on some choice partner candidates to place. That said, it's a good topic. Problem is, it's another one where what I have to say may please nobody. I think there were faults on both sides of the Dem/Repub divide on this one. I don't think anyone comes out clean. And I have mixed feelings about the bailout, too. It's wrong in the ideal world to bail out large, powerful entities at fault and not small, vulnerable ones even if they were not without fault as well. But not bailing out the former would have a ripple effect on the economy that affects everyone, not just large investors. It's a tough situation.

exholt said...

"And let's not forget the race-baiting:

[I've concluded the Obamas are cultural nationalists. For example, Obama and Wright helped organize the Million Man March]

So, yeah. Not convincing me."

This along with:

"Here's the trick. Ignore the policies and look at his BEHAVIOR. "

and:

"Trinity,

Didn't you sign on late to her campaign? I have eagle eyes, you know."

all seem to fit the behavioral pattern of demanding other people check their critical thinking faculties at the door and the "Agree with me 100% or else" BS attitude that was endemic with the overprivileged campus Marxists/Maoists I had to deal with at my undergrad as an Asian-American scholarship student....or more graphically, the Maoist Red Guards my great-aunt and her family had to put up with at the height of the Cultural Revolution during the 60's and 70's.

I am ashamed to say I am not too surprised by the race-baiting considering how deeply anti-African-American cultural attitudes within mainstream White US culture has deeply permeated many Asian-American communities to a disturbing degree....especially those more socio-economically privileged who lived/grew up in upper/upper-middle class nearly all-White suburbs.

Octogalore said...

Exholt and SMMO, I am uncomfortable with the reference to the Million Man March too. But I'm not sure we can assume race-baiting. Did the comment refer to Farrakhan's perceived sexism and antisemitism, and of the sexism that's arguably part of the Nation of Islam's dogma?

Looking at this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/oct/15/poll.htm) and the fact that black women who provided opinions on the march had a much less sanguine view of the benefits of the march to them personally, and of Farrakhan. I don't know if Donna was arguing that Obama emphasized the goals of black men over black women or if she was simply remarking negatively on his emphasis of the goals of black men. I tend to think, based on her invocation of Michelle Obama's statements, it's the former.

donna darko said...

SMMO,

These are facts. He and Wright helped organize the Million Man March. The goal of the Million March is cultural nationalism, putting men's needs before womens. Cultural nationalism would put women's rights backwards 40-50 years and this is not what our country needs now. Besides, cultural nationalism is only needed when a country is oppressed by an outside force. There is no need for it right now and no need to put women backwards 40-50 years.

It's also a fact that Michelle Obama loves Biden, the cruel interrogator of Anita Hill during the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings. The fact that she like most black women at the time favored Thomas over Hill for the sake of racial solidarity attests to her cultural national beliefs.

She also wrote her Princeton thesis on the important of putting the black community first. First before what? Everything else including black women's rights. This fits in with the cultural nationalist theme.

She also chose Wright's church which is sympathetic to cultural nationalism. She knows what's going on. She and Barack were married by Wright, had their girls baptized by Wright and remained in the church for twenty years. Wright made controversial statements about white people and has a cultural nationalist bent.

As feminists, you should be interested in discussing these issues. They are extremely important to discuss and I think it makes the Obamas unfit to lead.

donna darko said...

Cultural nationalism is the wrong model at the wrong time. The US is not under attack by an outside force. Obama is running for leader of the free world. The world is not under attack by an outside force. Aliens are not colonizing the planet so there is no need to take gender relations back 40-50 years.

donna darko said...

Octo, do you really think the sexism in the election wasn't unusual?

1) the derailing of the campaign of the only woman who could be President for the next twenty years
2) the egregious sexism of the primary
3) VP Palin
4) the egregious sexism against Palin
5) McCain heavily courting PUMAs who are mostly women and GLBT

Misogyny and corruption during the primary are why six million PUMAs are not voting for Obama. Do you really think this is nothing out of the ordinary in an election cycle?

Octogalore said...

I do think the sexism in the campaign was unusual. But I don't think it's because Obama and his campaign were unusually sexist, just that they were typical of other (not all) male politicians who are sexist. The difference is that with a female rival, they had an outlet for it.

Despite Obama's involvment with the March or Wright, I don't see him as prioritizing black interests in a principled way as much as taking calculated, tactical steps. His treatment of Alice Palmer, his mentor, and his other shifts in politically popular direcions, demonstrates that, to me.

donna darko said...

Alice Palmer makes me think the way Obama campaigns may be different than how he governs.

And I bring up Michelle because Obama said he defers political decisions to her. He said "Ask Michelle" and was serious about it.

exholt said...

"She also wrote her Princeton thesis on the important of putting the black community first."

Ahh, I see you're following in the footsteps of right-wing attempts to discredit Clinton by casting negative aspersions on her because of her senior thesis on Saul Alinsky. :roll:


"Besides, cultural nationalism is only needed when a country is oppressed by an outside force."

Really....so I assume aspects of US history dealing with ethnic immigrant and non-White communities throughout the 19th and 20th centuries are complete bunk???

From what little I recalled from my US history studies.....cultural nationalism among African Americans, non-White minorities, and even non-Anglo-Saxon European immigrants in the US was critical in preserving the well-being of everyone within...especially considering how mainstream US society has a tendency to neglect and screw over such communities until are somehow deemed "acceptable" by that very mainstream.

Artifacts of such "cultural nationalism" from being neglected and screwed by the US mainstream still exist from historic ethnic neighborhoods like the Irish-dominated Southie to universities founded during a period when African-Americans, Irish, and Jewish students faced discrimination in Ivy-league admissions such as Howard University, Boston College and Brandeis University respectively.

This raison d'etre still exists for many minority/ethnic groups which are still getting screwed by the US mainstream. From the racism perpetuated by anti-immigrant right-wing demagogues to the racial profiling police and the US mainstream still pulls on African-Americans, this is still a problem that has not been solved....and is being made worse by rhetoric put forth by DD and others of her ilk.

What you and others may negatively deem "cultural nationalism" is really a byproduct of years, decades, and in some cases...centuries of being neglected and screwed around by the White-dominated US mainstream. If a given society's dominant groups treat another group with so much brutal crap, WTF did you expect was going to happen???

Sadly enough, this "negative rhetoric" meme is eerily similar to the type of crap many Japanese right-wing politicians and commentators have used to dismiss the legitimate seething anger from many Asian victims of Japan's quest for empire and to continue racial discrimination against non-Japanese minorities...especially Koreans and Chinese.

In addition, why are you singling Obama for negative associations with Jeremiah Wright.

If one wants to be fair, we must also acknowledge McCain's prior associations with John Hagee who has made remarks many criticized for being antisemitic, anti-catholic, and anti-muslim. Once they were publicized, McCain had no problems throwing him under the bus to avoid further political damage.

Don't forget how much more support he's now getting from White right-wing fundamentalists like Pat Robertson and Dr. James Dobson after Palin came on his ticket due to her bona-fide religious-right credentials.

BTW: why isn't this form of White-dominated radical-right Christian fundamentalism decried negatively as a form of "Cultural Nationalism"?? Hmmm... I wonder why......

donna darko said...

Hillary Clinton still aligns with Alinsky's theories and there's no problem with that. Obama is running for President and there's a problem if she's a cultural nationalist. Her Princeton thesis aligns with her love of Biden, her choice of church, and Obama's and Wright's organizing efforts of the Million Man March.

Cultural nationalism is a backwards, sexist, outmoded form of organization in the United States that does not align with current gender structures and norms. It was perhaps necessary in the 1960s and 70s at the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement it's currently too backwards and sexist a form of organization for ethnic communities in the United States.

The Taliban is probably necessary in places like Afghanistan because the US attacked and occupied the country.

donna darko said...

There's no need to go backwards in terms of gender relations in the United States because Obama is running for President of the United States and leader of the free world not President of the black community.

donna darko said...

If I wasn't clear, cultural nationalism is a backwards, sexist, homophobic form of organization.

exholt said...

"Cultural nationalism is a backwards, sexist, outmoded form of organization in the United States that does not align with current gender structures and norms."

Yet, why the double-standards by singling out Obama's "Cultural Nationalism" while ignoring that of the White-dominated Christian right which McCain and Palin are pandering to in their campaign?

Is it because it is so normalized in your definition of what it means to be "American" that the White dominated Christian-right's form of "Cultural Nationalism" is acceptable while those of non-White non-fundamentalist Christian groups are a-ok?

This never made sense to me. Though I had had a glimpse of this mentality among many White town residents while attending college in a rural Midwestern town...I also knew how narrow-minded and erroneous this BS was as someone who not only grew up in one of the most diverse cities in the US, but also studied and experienced different cultural outlooks beyond the narrow-minded US-centric milieu.

Moreover, why is it that non-conformity to social norms is always a negative thing as you seem to be implying here?
I tend to be wary of anyone calling for wholesale unquestioning conformity to prevailing social norms of any type. Recent history has plenty of examples of how such conformist attitudes tends to lead to tyranny and social ossification due to the suppression of dissent. The rise of Fascist and Communist movements and governments are quite instructive on this...

"If I wasn't clear, cultural nationalism is a backwards, sexist, homophobic form of organization."

Backwards?!! From which socio-cultural paradigm are you using to determine what is "backwards" or not? Who gets to determine this and on the basis of what paradigms/standards??

Moreover, isn't this a Eurocentric/ethnocentric dogwhistle often used by Westerners to glorify the "civilized" Western societies/cultures while simultaneously denigrating their non-Western counterparts?

This brings to mind a quote from Mahatma Gandhi when he was interviewed by a reporter:

Reporter: What do you think of Western Civilization?

Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea!

donna darko said...

The gender roles of Black Nationalism in the 60s and 70s were more pronounced especially if superimposed on the whole country whereas the gender roles of Christianity and fundamental Christianity are compromised by the mostly secularized American culture and society.

We saw in the primary what happens when the gender norms of the cultural nationalism play out in their pronounced fashion when superimposed on society as a whole outside of the black community.

Cultural nationalism is really inappropriate because the United States is not being oppressed by an outside force.

exholt said...

"Cultural nationalism is really inappropriate because the United States is not being oppressed by an outside force."

And again, you are ignoring plenty of examples from US history which shows that cultural nationalism does not only arise from being oppressed by an foreign force, but also from being oppressed by the dominant privileged group in US society.

Again, look at the reasons why African-American, Jewish, Irish, and Chinese neighborhoods, organizations, and in some cases....even higher educational institutions such as Howard University, Brandeis, and Boston college came about within the US history narratives. They all arose because the dominant privileged group exerted much effort to exclude them from participation in the US mainstream.

It wasn't foreign oppression that caused such "cultural nationalism"...but usually domestic oppression from the dominant privileged group within US society.

Kind of sad you're apparently ignoring a critical piece of US history when this history is all around us and learning it only requires some curiosity in attempting to understand the complex history of the US....an understanding which is not predicated on having a college education....much less an Ivy-level one.

donna darko said...

I addressed that multiple times. The cultural nationalist model especially it's gender norms are not appropriate for the United States as a whole. The way it played out in the primary, the whole United States would have to change its gender norms which is going backwards 40-50 years. In the 60s and 70s it's understandable as Jim Crow were in still enforced. But white people, Asian people, Latino people and even black people today do not need to live in under these backwards gender norms.

donna darko said...

Michele Wallace is a great black feminist author who wrote in the 60s and 70s black women either had babies or stood by their men because black men are oppressed by society when the solution was for black women to be strong, independent, to go to school, have careers, be feminists. Having babies suggested as suggested by Nikki Giovanni or standing by your man as suggested by Angela Davis was shortsighted. The best way to support the black community and black men was to have careers and be feminists.

The cultural nationalist model is going backwards as it says to stand by your man no matter what. That is the wrong model for black women and all other women especially in these times. Feminism is the solution for ALL COMMUNITIES AND NATIONS.

donna darko said...

It is completely anachronistic for white women to stand by their men no matter what, Asian women to stand by their men no matter what, Latina women to stand by their men no matter what and even black women to stand by their men no matter what.

Was it worth it for black women to stand by Clarence Thomas? No and it's not worth it for black women to stand by Barack Obama. It's not worth it for anyone to stand by Barack Obama.

Ariella said...

Great work.