It’s clear from my last post that there is a sense that someone who is fiscally conservative – in the fairly moderate manner of being accepting of, if not enamored with, a progressive tax in which the top bracket total percentage is 50% or lower – and does not vote for every Democratic candidate for President (although actually, I always have in the past) is somehow “out of touch.”
Never mind that other concerns have been voiced consistently over months, and deal with feminism – a liberal concern. Well, maybe not – while Feminism the movement appears preoccupied with liberalism in general, I’m not quite sure the reverse is true. But I digress. Or, maybe not.
And never mind that there are numerous reasons why a feminist who isn’t blown away by the experience or substantive policies of the Democratic candidate would have principled reasons not to vote Democratic in 2008.
Now, disagreement is fine. One could argue that the middle class needs a boost, Obama will likely not get carried away (some may feel even substantial redistribution is OK), and the Supreme Court issues pose a great risk even with a Democratic congress. That’s fine. But it is really so inconceivable to believe disincentivizing small business is actually going to be bad for the middle and lower classes (after all, an awful lot of economists at liberal campuses do). Is it out of touch to notice when misogyny isn’t contradicted numerous times over, when it comes not just from surrogates but from close, long-term friends and associates, some of whom have been asked to play key campaign roles? I remember Larry Summers’ famous comments about women’s inferiority. Everyone else does too. Appointing him a senior advisor sends a message, especially coupled with paying female staffers eighty-two cents on the dollar.
One could argue – well even with all that, McCain will be so much worse for the Supreme Court. Could very well be. That’s why I don’t endorse either candidate. However, I note that McCain’s move to the right and Biden’s to the left on abortion coincided with their 2008 campaigning. I also note that Obama was enamored with Roberts before an aide told him not to be. And finally, the democrat-packed, likely filibuster-proof congress. I’ve read enough legal articles to convince me which liberal issues could be compromised with a Republican president, and I don’t think choice is one of them. Still, I believe it’s legitimate to disagree with me on this issue.
However, “out of touch” suggests either that it is impossible for two people to want the same thing but believe in different mechanisms for getting there or that the person who is allegedly “out of touch” doesn’t really understand how to get there, whereas the accuser does. Because if people are upset about the economy, the accuser’s strategy is the obvious, the only, way to fix it.
If only it were so simple. A fixed amount of production which can be split any which way, staying constant throughout. Um, no. That’s not how it works. Economists much more skilled than either I or those on the other side of the post below have argued about these points for centuries. It doesn’t yield to a convenient “those who disagree are greedy and out of touch” conclusion.
But wait? Is there more going on here?
After all, I am not the only person not voting for Obama (although some days it seems so!). But I am female, and I am a feminist. Could those be related to the shock, the disgust at how “out of touch” I am?
Let’s talk about “out of touch” for a bit. I’m not going to boringly, self-servingly, dip into my creds once more. Most here know I have experienced some highs and some lows, but not the highest highs or the lowest lows. The bottom line is, unless any of the commenters are family members or old friends who’ve somehow figured out who I am (aside from Mom, who reads here and disagrees with me on this issue among others, but has already told me that in person) – nobody has the background with which to make that accusation.
I wonder whether male bloggers whose conservative creds are so nebulous as mine – basically amounting to being a small-l libertarian democrat – get this kind of accusation. Or whether it’s assumed that their stands, agreeable or not, are at least principled and researched.
I also wonder whether being a feminist is part of where the grief is coming from. Aren’t we supposed to be the National Organization of [Liberal] Women? Feminism should ideally be characterized by the ability for women to be independent, but is the ideal actually to simply transfer ones fealty from the Right-Wing Patriarchy to the Lefty one?
Who knows? All I know is: I’m a feminist, my goal is a healthy, safe, economically thriving (at all levels and especially the most vulnerable) country. And when I marked my ballot last week, I voted, albeit unenthusiastically, for John McCain.
Thursday, October 30, 2008
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72 comments:
Oh I'm so glad you didn't endorse McCain! Because that would be so substantively different than voting for the fuckwad.
We clearly disagree on which is the lesser of two evils. That's not up for debate; what I am interested in here is the nature of the hostility on one end.
I don't like Republicans. I don't like the party that historically and presently is racist, sexist, hawkish, anti-environmental, anti-intellectual, anti-science and viciously anti-choice.
Has it occurred to you that the Democratic congress you're counting would be due in large part to Obama's coattails? Of course you won't have to worry, you're rich enough to fly to a place where choice exists if the need arises.
There are plenty of honorable reasons to not vote for Obama. There are no honorable ones to vote for McCain, not for a feminist.
I think that sums up the nature of my hostility.
SMMO, if you don't understand that the vote is motivated by voting against what I believe the be the greater of the two evils, rather than to support Republican social policy, you're missing the point.
"Has it occurred to you that the Democratic congress you're counting would be due in large part to Obama's coattails?"
They are due in large part to the fact that the chosen Democratic nominee is winning, and has deep pockets (largely due to hypocrisy). But the issue is that we will indeed have that check should McCain win (unlikely). I am more concerned about an unchecked Obama than a restrained McCain, yes.
There are plenty of feminists voting for McCain -- many who would have voted for Clinton. You are free to feel that the articulated reasons, many of which you haven't adequately or thoughtfully engaged with, are not honorable. I'm going to ask that you leave the hostility at the door, however. While free speech and dissent are important, I think the latter is critical only up to the point at which it becomes counterproductive. I don't see any possible gains in intra-feminist insults and shame tactics, despite how popular those techniques are in some areas of the movement.
Implying that feminists must have not only have certain beliefs, but that these beliefs -- even when in agreement - must result in certain decisions, is not to my mind productive. Stating that one disagrees with how the beliefs could lead to varying decisions and backing that up substantively is effective. Tossing out a litany of adjectives whose universal application is easily disproven, followed by character assassination, is not. I've always treated each dissenting commenter with respect, always encouraged principled and thoughtful disagreement and would ask the same in return.
You'd like to pretend that the historical antipathy between feminists and conservatives is merely accidental.
So when you voted for McCain did you attach a little sticky that said "please only count 5/9 of this vote - I'm against Republican social policy!"? Did that make you feel better that you voted for the God 'n Guns party? For the guy that put finger quotes around "health of the mother" when talking about late term abortion, which is often necessitated by a threat to the pregnant woman's life?
No need to worry about my hostility, and adjective tossing any longer. I don't read PUMA blogs - they're boring.
OK, best of luck to you.
I say good for you for voting your conscious. And your interests. For a "presently sexist" party, Republicans are at least offering women something this year.
I have a paradox for smmo to solve:
As I understand, you favor your abortionist AND favor taxing his/her marginal income up to 60%.
The business model would be:
-12+ year EXPENSIVE training ($250,000)
-huge malpractice and overhead
-(mostly) low income customers
-personal safety risk including death threats
-then pay 60% marginal income tax?
No informed young person will make that choice, and the current ones would switch to filling leg veins and shooting Botox.
PUMA! Call yourself a PUMA!
The funny thing is PUMAs are the real feminists and Democrats.
Thanks, Anna Belle.
JZ -- that makes sense, although I'm not fond of the appellation "abortionist." Real world people do make decisions based on such things, and we need to plan based on actual rather than "ideal world" conditions.
Donna -- while I understand and respect the PUMA theory, I don't think I fit into that category. My vote isn't just a protest vote -- I really think McCain is the lesser of two evils here. I wouldn't vote for him just to spite the Democrats, although that certainly seems deserved this year.
I don't understand the point you made in your last comment. What's not OKay with the term "abortionist"?
"we need to plan" Plan what?
My point is that abortion is not a policy, a right, nor a rhetorical discussion. It is a medical service offered by a surgical-booties-on-the-ground professional who has bills to pay and other business options. Physicians respond to financial incentives, just like others. That is why there are a shortage of primary care docs, pediatric neurologists, rural obstetricians, and abortionists. These are no longer viable business options.
I agree with all your business points, JZ. But most docs who do abortions are regular OBs, and I think should be called by the term that describes what they generally do.
The "plan" issue was backing up your point that people respond to financial incentives, and we need to plan (eg, formulate tax plans) with that in mind. Not with the happy, blue-sky but unrealistic proposition in mind that output will remain static irrespective of the tax code.
PUMAs also protested the sexism and corruption. You protested some of the sexism. They don't necessarily vote for McCain. For example, I am abstaining. They just don't vote for Obama. Its cool that you like McCain for your own reasons. This election is so strange. I see Republicans as human for the first time since I was 22.
Thanks, Donna -- me too! I've never voted Republican before and may never again. In fact, I used to view them in much the same way SMMO did (although without the overt hostility). I still strongly disagree with socially conservative positions, but I'm more amenable to the idea that a vote is based on the sum total of the circumstances, rather than condemning people based on one or two issues. I don't think the latter way of controlling women is necessarily better when the guys (or other women) doing it are on the left.
I completely disagree with you here on small businesses -- my view is more in line with Dean Baker's "The Conservative Nanny State" on "Small Business Babies." (You can find the book here.) But you are awesome. I've admired your writing for a while. I'm excited to see what looks like a new groundswell of analytical-minded feminists who don't apologize for standing up for women's interests, and you are clearly at the forefront.
The15th – thanks so much for that! I’m glad to have met you over at Violet’s. Darn, every time I think I’m burnt out on blogging, someone like you says something like that and I am newly inspired.
As to Baker’s book. He makes some good points, but I’m not sure they really refute my thoughts regarding small businesses. He illustrates ways in which government intervention actually helps the rich. But most of these points deal with large companies and also deal with issues I haven’t contradicted.
He talks about limiting immigration of highly skilled foreigners while allowing immigration in the lower wage areas so as to keep certain wages high and others low. I don’t support that policy.
He also talks about the Fed using monetary policy to lift unemployment and keep wages of the poor low and inflation high, which the rich like. Again not something I espouse.
He condemns unlimited CEO pay – I support some level of governmental checks in that arena, as well.
I disagree with his views on intellectual property – as I used to practice in that area and currently represent a lot of IP lawyers, I think copyright and patent law plays a key role in protecting incentive for innovation, and also protecting the small inventor. Of course, there are some reforms that make sense, but his views are IMO too broad here.
I don’t recall him talking about whether taxing successful small businesses at higher than 50% makes sense. If indeed he does, then yes, that’s certainly an area in which I disagree. He criticizes tax breaks for small businesses, but I think mainly where they are just fake businesses to defraud the IRS, not real productive entrepreneurial businesses. He’s more lenient on larger companies. That way lies Starbucks, IBM, and a bunch of chains.
Anyway, I'd love to hear your views as I may be missing some stuff here. Thanks again for your kind words.
Circumstances, laugh out loud.
I wonder whether male bloggers whose conservative creds are so nebulous as mine – basically amounting to being a small-l libertarian democrat – get this kind of accusation. Or whether it’s assumed that their stands, agreeable or not, are at least principled and researched.
Good question!!
HI,
Firstly, I thought you handled the hostility from smmo tactfully. Nice job!
re: your comment on burnout.
Basically, if you continue to write, I'll continue to read. At age 51, I've had no awareness of current feminism until 2-3 years ago, generated by a little constellation of questions. My own views to political problems run capitalist/libertarian, and it's interesting to learn of the feminist's views. I'm aware of the "feministe" and "feministing" sites, but they seem cultish to me. I've appreciated the intelligent talk you've generated here recently. Burnout is real, though, so do what's best for you.
Thanks, JZ! That means a lot.
I hear you regarding feminist sites. Shakes Sis is a good one, although I haven't gotten over there recently -- I should remedy that. I like the writers at Feministe very much as people. I enjoy the site as well, but go there with the expectation that it is a liberal (and lately, dominated by pro-Obama posts) site with a feminist slant, rather than a site concentrating on feminism.
There's definitely a sense that some feminist points of view are better than others, that one has to take with a grain of salt. I must say, to be fair, that Feministe very graciously hosted me as guest poster during the summer -- although, that was before I announced my voting status. They were very kind and in some cases quite supportive of my pro-regulated-capitalism posts! We'll see if I now continue to be blogrolled over there. But, must give them kudos for being open to different perspectives.
John McCain...Wow I must say that my jaw just hit the keyboard. I can understand the reasons why you say that Obama may not be the great vision from on high as he is constructed to be by some, but McCain..WOW. I'm actually speechless
Lesser of two evils, Renee, IMO. I think untested first-term Senators, no matter how meaningful their candidacy, unchecked by the Senate, who have had very meager political accomplishments and economic plans that I think will significantly hurt all income levels in the final analysis -- are more dangerous than center-right Republicans, who've moved right on social policies in time to get nominated but have shown more interest in other areas of governing and would be checked by the Democratic Senate. I think McCain has run a crappy campaign -- but I think campaigning well is the tip of the iceberg in terms of governing.
Add to that -- at the end of the primary, for the various reasons linked in the post dealing with feminist issues, I was already determined not to vote for Obama. My last comment dealt mostly with reasons I did vote for McCain rather than simply not voting.
Good for you!
PUMAs also dig Sarah Palin. I know you kinda dig her too.
You have totally overlooked the peace angle. War is expensive. War can bankrupt a country in a heartbeat. Are you figuring the costs of perpetual 100-years-war into your economic calculations?
If not in Iraq, somewhere else. McCain is an unapologetic, committed hawk, who believes in Manifest Destiny (read his book) and has backed every military action EVER UNDERTAKEN by the US, even extending back to Wounded Knee. WEST POINT UBER ALLES! McCain has wanted to go to war all over the world at some point... he was agitating for Iraq-intervention LONG BEFORE George Bush was.
An analysis of the philosophy of Manifest Destiny; who fights the wars (particularly unpopular ones, like this one) in a capitalist economic system (hint: not the rich) and what these wars are fought over, demands that a progressive come to the conclusion that using humans for mere cannon fodder is WRONG AND IMMORAL as is wanting to take over the whole world and force them to play by our rules.
And for those of you focused only on the bottom line, war is pricey as hell too. It also endangers the USA in the world, and makes them hate our guts. People like Ron Paul, no bleeding-heart liberal, persuasively argue that hawks actually DECREASE the security of the USA for this reason.
This is why I disrespect John McCain, before all else.
I am more concerned about an unchecked Obama than a restrained McCain, yes.
Are you talking about his eagerness to get us into war in Russia, his threats about N. Korea, et. al.? Are you serious? A so-called "restrained" McCain, heartily endorsed by his like-minded cold-blooded hawk-ally, Dick Cheney, will still be able and willing to start WWIII, or at least keep us in Iraq for a very long time, as promised. (With NO timetable, and fuck us for daring to ask.) In fact, if he gets a mandate, he will feel it is his DUTY to stay in Iraq indefinitely.
All his "fight fight fight" rhetoric (I am listening to him say that RIGHT NOW on CNN) is literal. He is a child of the military and looks to the military FIRST, not last, to solve problems.
FACT: War hurts women first. How is endless war (WAR IS PEACE) a feminist position?
THAT is the reason to vote against John McCain.
And as for "out of touch"--the fact that you didn't mention THIS TRILLION DOLLAR WAR a single time in your post? Okay, I won't say it... ;)
But that's one of the main things the people I know are concerned about. It is their kids (and the rare politician's son) who are fighting it. And they know it is bleeding us absolutely dry and will bankrupt us if it doesn't stop NOW.
I'm very sad that you voted for the Manchurian Candidate... when he wins, the lights in his eyes go on, the whirring starts, and Angela Lansbury whispers in his ear. DEFCON 1 in short order.
I wish I were kidding, but he terrifies me exactly on that level. I do not want to be able to say "I told you so"--but of course, as the air raid sirens start, you might think back to this moment when I told you so.
Also, this cinches it... the Bradley Effect is real. Even Octogalore!
I fully expect Obama to lose, due to this. :(
Daisy: McCain’s original vote on the war was the same as Biden’s, and the same as Obama admitted his would be had he been in the Senate at the time. In fact, McCain stated Bush mishandled the war at a time Obama was voting to expand war efforts. McCain also was right on the surge, which, although I agree with you about how misguided the war was to begin with, has reduced violence in Iraq, as Obama has admitted.
Based on even Biden’s predictions, I think it’s much less likely for us to have foreign policy concerns with Obama.
A number of bipartisans have said it’s critical for the US to be protected from another attack like 9/11, and that McCain is far more knowledgeable as to what the threats are. McCain has acknowledged that the US’ international status has been harmed under Bush, and has talked about the importance of strengthening our relations with democratic allies. Despite his rock star tour and the fact that the UN members like him because of potential UN handouts, I do not think Obama has the know-how to do this.
Finally, you're misdefining the Bradley effect. I haven't been polled, and if I were, I'd tell the truth about my vote. I have all along to anyone who asked.
PS -- the title of this post is still appropos. Assuming I didn't mention the war because I simply cannot fathom its importance is incorrect. To the extent this is a class-related accusation, in fact, many people who are in fact in tougher economic situations than either of us feel more comfortable with McCain at the foreign policy helm, even those who strongly disagree with him on social policy. I even know some of them! A bit more rational analysis and a bit fewer assumptions might be nice, my friend.
Daisy -- if you can stomach the source, and certainly not cosigning this article in its entirety, its discussion re foreign and economic policy is helpful in illustrating why Obama's closer to George Bush than is McCain.
Hey Octogalore!
I *think* this is the first time I've commented in your blog, but been reading it a while and know you from reclusive leftist also. Anyway, I totally understand you voting for McCain and am sorry you're taking crap for it. I wound up voting for McKinney but *especially* after seeing the reaction from some of your readers, I'm seriously tempted to say I voted for McCain on my live journal account just to see how many people yell at or unfriend me.
I totally get what you're saying though; it's really weird how a lot of people (and far moreso than normal this year) seem unable to get the whole "reasonable people can disagree on certain things; and even on other things where you think the other person is batshit crazy, they can be wrong without being evil" thing. Hell, I think each and every one of the people who are genuinely enthusiastic about an Obama presidency because they think he's run an upstanding campaign and is going to do a great job are batshit crazy and that *they* are taking an unreasonable position, but these batshit crazy people the majority of my friends both online and IRL.
Heaven knows we've been struggling financially the last few years due to a neverending hellstorm, more or less, and I am, shall we say, deeply unhappy that I'm working twice as many hours to make half as much money as I used and barely treading water (or sinking more slowly, maybe) , And I disagree somewhat with your economic positions. But I don't see where the idea that you are being callous towards people in a bad spot is coming from. So, fwiw, my support (and my so's, who also reads your blog; actually, I think she's the one who found both you and Violet).
Anyhow, here is my own reasoning, if you don't mind me reposting w/slight edits what I said earlier on Corrente --
Voted McKinney myself, after much deliberation. To the extent my vote could send a message that would be paid attention to by anyone, I thought this (most genuinely progressive candidate on the ballot, outspoken, all woman-of-color ticket) was the best message I could send (woulda wrote in Hillary if there had been any sign that she wanted us to).
Still feeling somewhat guilty about not voting for McPalin, not that they had a shot in Cali, but on the very off chance that those “polls are getting closer” stories are more than a try to keep people interested in the election, it would be a really nice message if Obama lost or even only tied the popular vote.
I think it’s a toss-up whether McCain or Obama will be better over the next 4 years (I lean towards McCain but all this is guesswork and my guess may be affected by the level of my dislike of Obama and his campaign), but over the long term I feel it’s overwhelmingly probable that a McCain victory would have been better—he shifts the republicans to the center whether they like it or not, and the dems realize not to take the support of various groups for granted and the dangers of running Rovian primary campaigns and rigging the outcome. On the other hand, the Obama win validates all sorts of horrific notions that have taken over the top of the democratic party and if the economy perks up at all under him, full steam ahead on all his positions I don’t like (telecomm immunity! more spying on citizens! including gays is insulting to the civil rights movement! women suck unless they suck up to people like Obama and Larry Summers! No desire to get the Blackwater types out of Iraq! UChi economics! nuclear power! clean coal! those last 3 might be McCain too, but at least he wouldn’t have the full-throated approval of Congress, and I’d rather be stabbed to death by my enemies than my friends) while the dems think “must stay conservative”.
And if the economy continues tanking, we have a return to republicans in 2012, who will have probably viewed the the McCain loss as “see, only the far right wackos win for us”.
In addition to what I said at Corrente, I'd like to add that I have more faith in McCain being willing to learn and adapt his positions to real life circumstances other than public opinion and nice treatment by the media and his donors, and also a vote for McCain/Palin is arguably a vote for better overall treatment for women *despite* McPalin's idiot pandering to the right on abortion (I say "idiot" because I think it was part of an overall fatal strategic error on their part that seems really obvious to me). So strikes me that there are plenty of "honorable" reasons for a liberal feminist to vote for McCain.
I'd like to cautiously weigh in on some previous comments.
RE: Octogalore's comment about "an unchecked Obama."
The threat of a supposedly "unchecked Obama" is a standard GOP talking point. But in fact, if Obama is elected President, even he is sworn in with a numerically filibuster-proof Democratic Congress, Obama as President will not be "unchecked."
The most obvious reason is that the Democratic Party itself is not monolithic, and, once elected into Congress, House Democrats will be preparing for the 2010 elections. Since certain elements of the GOP will continue to beat the race drum and will continue to try to terrorize voters into believing that Obama is "too far left" and is "anti-Israel," House Democrats in particular will probably not give President Obama a blank check, especially when it comes to support for Israel.
Remember that, between 2002 and 2006, G. W. Bush got his own nearly-blank check from the GOP-controlled Congress mostly by not vetoing ANY spending bills whatsoever. In return, the GOP-controlled Congress refrained from exercising serious oversight over Bush's War on Terror. President Obama will not be in a position to allow runaway spending and borrowing, and so that's one deal Obama will not be able to cut with a Democratic Congress. And that's merely the first check on the putative Obama White House.
RE: Daisy's comment about the fiscal as well as moral cost of continuous war.
That comment about the fiscal cost of war is HUGELY helpful, and I hope voters have weighed not only the costs to America's moral authority and to its national security, but also to its fiscal future. Modern warfare as conducted by developed countries is not cheap to begin with, and prolonged modern warfare can come close to bankrupting the governments even of developed countries. So the fiscal cost of McCain's proposed foreign policy needs to be weighed very carefully.
That's all. I just wanted to respond to those two comments.
Just one more comment, this time about the "Bradley effect."
We actually will not know the impact of the "Bradley effect" until all the votes on November 4have been counted.
So, at least in my opinion, it's premature to predict an Obama loss until all votes have been counted.
Please remember that even most people who voted for Bush in 2000 have been completely disillusioned by both Bush and by the current state of the GOP. Even Republicans who nominally support the McCain/Palin ticket very strongly expect a Democratic landslide on November 4 which will result in an Obama presidency and a Democratic-controlled Congress. That's why the GOP currently tries to scare voters with the myth of an "unchecked" Obama.
So don't rule out Obama yet.
Brief clarification-- I don't think all people voting for/supporting Obama are being "batshit crazy", as I put it. Just those who seem blind to his flaws or think they are very small flaws.
People who think he's the lesser evil and not McCain, I get. I think they're wrong, just as they no doubt think I'm wrong, but this is all semi-educated guesswork as to exactly what each are going to do, and they're both much harder to predict than past candidates.
if you can stomach the source
Octo, you should not trust the National Review. Not nobody, not nohow!
Every word is a lie, including the AND and the THE.
(((sigh)))
Octogalore,
I respect your choice...though I disagree with it.
Here are some reasons why I cannot vote for the McCain-Palin ticket.
1. He's shown a history of anti-Asian racism..which he attempted to downplay by issuing a weak apology in 2000. A man who cannot distinguish between past wartime enemies and fellow Americans of Asian descent is not one who I feel can represent me...or this country.
2. Pandering too close to the religious right during the last few years...including disavowing his remark calling members of the Christian Right "Agents of intolerance" and choosing Governor Palin, someone whose religious right cred can match Huckabee's.
3. Governor Palin's record of abusing the powers of her office as Governor epitomized by Troopergate...an attempt to meddle in a matter that was settled, however imperfectly, before she and her public safety commissioner took office. This behavior reminds me too much of the abusive excesses of 19th century patronage politics before the Civil Service reforms of the 1880s....something that should certainly be unacceptable in the 21st century.
4. Governor Palin's stance on teaching creationism as science in public schools....something which makes me nervous not only for constitutional reasons, but also because the US is already a laughing stock in the science education area....and her becoming Vice President and possibly President will give creationism/intelligent design advocates more encouragement to attempt implementing creationism/intelligent design curricula like their attempt in Kansas and Dover, Pa.
5. I am fed up with the anti-intellectual discourse of the McCain-Palin campaign and the larger GOP where there is something wrong with being highly educated with substantial academic and related accomplishments. Considering similar tactics were used by Fascist and Communist regimes to silence dissent from the intelligentsia...it scares the hell out of me. When I see a party and campaign which denigrates academia and those who have substantial academic accomplishments, this itself provides an exhibit as to why the US has so many educational problems...and why US students are so far behind their international peers.
5. Governor Palin's use of the term "real American" in her campaign is a dogwhistle which privileges the perceived loyalty of all-White/mostly White small rural towns...especially those outside of Hawaii and the coasts above all other Americans. I've had a taste of the "real Americans" when I attended college in a small rural town in Northern Ohio....and found a large chunk of them to be racist, sexist, homophobic assholes who did everything they could to antagonize and even threaten anyone who wasn't a "real American". Heck, I almost got into a fight with one of those "real Americans" after he made anti-Asian threats, made threatening gestures...and almost came out of his car to confront me when a cop car suddenly appeared behind a few blocks behind him and he decided to reconsider.
6. Considering the massive debt incurred as a result of the W administration initiated War in Iraq and other factors, it wouldn't surprise me that if elected, McCain's administration repeats GHW Bush's "Read my lips, no new taxes" by being forced by economic circumstances to raise income and other taxes down the road.
MojaveWolf – welcome! And, thanks for your support. Yeah, totally confused about the number of people who decide those who vote differently are evil. It’s not only idiotic, but self-destructive. Nobody’s changing anyone’s minds, and ejecting good people from one’s life usually hurts the ejector worse.
I understand your thinking. My concerns with McKinney dealt with her not speaking up about her dad’s many anti-Semitic comments, and the fact that I don’t think the current system enables third party votes to be meaningful, esp in CA. But, I can see how others might disagree.
I agree that McPalin’s pandering to the right was a drastic mistake. McC never voiced any interest in doing away with Roe prior to the campaign pandering, and it would be very difficult for him to achieve in any case. Focusing on the economy and making the clearer, more intelligent conservative economic case would have helped him win more minds and hearts.
Poeschl: far from a GOP talking point, an unchecked Obama is a political potential, factually. I hope you are right about spending discipline, but I certainly don’t trust Pelosi et al on that, as they were not impressive under Bush in that regard.
Your comments about the fiscal costs of war are well taken. However, I am not sure why you feel more comfortable with Obama in that regard. Numerous statements of his have made me feel he is an inappropriate steward, based on lack of experience, at this time. I don’t think McCain’s allegedly more hawklike stance means more expense. I could cite chapter and verse here, but I’ve neglected my daughter tonight, so I’ll avoid the research project, but I have read both liberal and conservative scholars who feel more comfortable with him at the foreign policy helm.
Daisy: since I made the comment about NRO articles being taken with many grains of salt, I’m not sure why the need to caution me. I take information from many sources. While my print publications are the usual left wing mainstays, I like to look at conservative economists online as well. I know which parts of NRO to avoid like the plague, thanks. I think it’s advisable to get out of the habit of restricting which media we can and cannot look at. You know the ways that can be turned around, I believe.
Exholt – thanks for your thoughtful comments. I understand your thinking in every regard. I have a hard time with (1) and (2) as well. On (3), I think such governmental meddling is so clearly evident on both sides that I cannot hold McPalin any more accountable for that than O’Biden. (4) – frankly, the percentage of people on both sides who think that’s ridiculous, coupled with the fact that Palin talked about including it and not teaching it solo (not that I agree with that), and the solid phalanx of support for separation of church and state – make it very hard for me to take that seriously. (5a) You’re talking about campaigning and mostly that done by supporters. Discourse on both sides has been disappointing in numerous respects. Looking at whom McP would have in their cabinet, it would be the same academic elites O’B would. That kind of talk is time-limited. (5b) Agree with that. (6) Yeah, could be, but it won’t be the same proctology exam the other side’s talking about.
Thanks again for your well thought out views. I get where you’re coming from.
Riiight. You couldn't possibly abstain from voting if you didn't like Obama...
After the failure of every one of the Republican policies, from Iraq to de-regulation, why on earth would you vote Republican, as a bloody feminist? After the effective suspension of democratic law? How long can Roe v Wade stay with another Republican President? Will gay marriage stay where it is legal? Obama may not be the world's greatest feminist, but the McCain-Palin is clearly anti-feminist, boldly and starkly.
Or if McCain died and Palin became President, what about the distinct possibility of martial law and a Christian theocracy? After they have stirred up essentially a race war with their advertisements and her fascist rallies?
You've gone wrong. I don't know if Obama can fix many things, but to vote for McCain is to make a decision so selfish you are essentially an oxygen thief. But hey, Suzan and I will wave to you from the internment camps as you enjoy the fruits of your fiscal conservatism..
I'm glad you couldn't stay away, Octo. You're a voice of sanity.
I am very worried about an unchecked Obama, especially when it comes to stemming the erosion of abortion protections. I am worried about the infatuated press, Congress, and citizenry trusting him like I don't believe any politician deserves to be trusted. My politics are more in line with the Greens and McKinney/Clemente, but I've been awfully tempted to vote for McCain, especially as the vitriolic hatred from the Obama supporters has reached fever pitch. I don't see how a vote for Obama can be construed as feminist after he capitalized on misogyny while courting the support of evangelicals. I totally respect and understand the decision you made.
I am very worried about an unchecked Obama, especially when it comes to stemming the erosion of abortion protections.
..Please explain exactly how it is that -Obama- worries you more in this regard than McCain.
Have you even looked at the voting records? Try "On the Issues:" You might find it enlightening.
McCain on reproductive rights
Obama on same
-Do- scroll down past the Fox interview to his -actual voting record.-
I mean I realize NARAL only gave him a 100% rating (and McCain a 0%) because they're ZOMG sexist Hillary haters (and radical scary terrorist Islam socialist, etc. etc. etc.), but, you know.
And MojaveWolf--um, yeah, I'm well aware that Obama is not ideal on gay rights, because rightly or wrongly the assumption is it'd be political suicide, unfortunately, to come right out and endorse gay marraige. But you know what: he's against Proposition 8. McCain's for it. And his lovely, -experienced- veep (you are kidding, OG, about that bit as a rationale for voting for McCain, aren't you?) has made it very clear that she'd enshrine DOMA in the U.S. Constitution if she could.
And yeah, some of us are a -bit- more concerned about the Dominionist ties there than y'know, Joe The Fucking Plumber might get his taxes raised back to the level they were before the frigging Bush cuts (which had -nothing- to do with the state of the economy, and neither did his miserable pointless war which no I'm not all that utopian about Obama's promise to "end" it but I'm damn sure at least more behind that as a goal than McCain's insistence on "winning" it). Or, well, anyone else's, bluntly. Sorry, some of us feel the impact a tad more viscerally; but by all means, let's agree to disagree rationally about this. I mean cheer up, it might never happen anyway, right?
Sure, the Democrats'll block the worst excesses a radical-right pressured McCain (to say nothing of his successor should anything happen to him) would try, whether it's in the courts or, well, anything else. They've done -so well- with that before, and of course we can count on it staying the same in the midterms, and absolutely, we should -encourage- "gridlock" because you know, there's really nothing that needs to actually get -done-, now, except wait for presumably the -right candidate- (who could that be, think think think) to come along.
Brilliant.
And yeah, I am also confused as to what possible difference it's supposed to make how much enthusiasm you voted with, or, bluntly, why I'm supposed to care. Okay, I get it: you think someone raising your taxes is "less evil" than four more years of an increasingly radicalized Republican party run by an aging man with a hair-trigger temper and an eager veep who, bluntly, makes Bush look like fucking Winston Churchill. And, yes, I would say that if she were male. Does it need to be said?
Is there any point?
So yeah, okay, "lesser of two evils." Respectfully agree to disagree whatever. You know, I've been deliberately not reading over here because I just didn't want to know. Maybe I should have stuck to that. Sorry for the pain, you know. I'll try to remember it when I'm dealing with the direct impact of the social policies that almost certainly positively probably won't come to pass and anyway aren't as important as an incremental adjustment to the taxation system. -nods- yay.
more briefly, what Renee said.
I wonder whether male bloggers whose conservative creds are so nebulous as mine – basically amounting to being a small-l libertarian
democrat – get this kind of accusation. Or whether it’s assumed that their stands, agreeable or not, are at least principled and researched
If I actually bothered to read anyone matching that description, I'm sure they would, from me. I'm trying to think who on earth it would be, a male blogger who claims to be a liberal and even a feminist but is voting for McCain. --oh, yeah, Hugo. -farts in Hugo's general direction one more time for emphasis.- There. All done!
*jaw drops a la Renee*
When I saw that first post a few days ago, I understood it as a principled claim that you'd voted third party or abstained from the presidential election. That assumption because I'd expected that of you--a principled choice, that is.
But you mean to defend your choice to vote McCain here?
I don't quite know what to say. I am shocked. You are defending PALIN here? Palin, with her Dominionist, anti-gay, anti-woman agenda? Palin, who is all over YouTube having "witchcraft" cast away from her so that she can help to establish the Theocratic Blackwater States of America? PALIN??? *boggles*
Not to mention, of course, the disappearance of the rule of law under these people and the mainstreaming of torture. In what way is this the "lesser of two evils" again?
And, yes, I do get that Obama is not the Perfect Feminist/Queer Ally. But to trade his brand of calm, reasoned conservatism for what has become of the (fascist-leaning) Republican party? No, I do not understand this. Not in any possible world. Not from a self-identified liberal feminist.
Meanwhile... Back here in Central PA, the PoC I know are afraid to go to the polls because of the DOGMATIC HATRED being drummed up at Palin rallies. I live just a few miles outside of Klan headquarters, you see. And, you know, as someone who grew up in a region of the country where people were still seeing crosses burned on their yards and getting death threats for daring to speak out against racism... That is, someone who ACTUALLY KNOWS what dogwhistles like "kill him" and "terrorist" mean IN PRACTICE... NO, this isn't at the fringes of the party, much as McCain might like to claim. YES, it is becoming emboldened as the fascist hate groups of America are seeing that they have a supportive national audience. And, YES, people goddamned DIED to get us past those darkest days of the 1950s... And we were past that, until McCain started hearkening back to those same tactics that got that lovely White Supremacist Jesse Helms elected year after year after fucking year in the state that I grew up in. Oh, wait, he didn't do that? That whole thing about Obama "not being an Arab" but a decent "family man"? THAT'S the voice of reason and "tolerance"? No. Seriously, no.
And, okay, you know... I'm sorry for the "hostility." It's just, well... Um... You can be as reasoned and rational as you like, doesn't change the fact that you've kicked me and mine in the face. But don't worry... Besides enjoying your fiscal conservatism, I hope you also enjoy your het marriage, since it'll be protected if Palin and company enshrine DOMA as federal law. Guess I'll just write off that pipe dream, there, since PUMA solidarity is ClEARLY more important than my right to marry. And not live in fear. And all that. Right.
Um... I don't even know what to say. Perhaps I should've stuck simply with, "What Renee said." See... Kicking me in the face over policies that have a real material affect on me and mine... That doesn't fall in the realm of calm, rational debate for me. That's fucking betrayal. Sorry, but it is.
Also, look... Um, you're not Colin Powell, and no one was waiting with baited breath to see how your endorsement choice (or lack thereof) might affect the outcome of the election. So, tell me again what you see as the difference between endorsing McCain and "unenthusiastically" voting for him? I don't think they really tally your level of enthusiasm there in the voting booth... But I'll keep the fact that you didn't mean it in mind when I have to come to terms with what McCain policies will actually MEAN for me life. Or in other words, "I just kicked you in the fact, but my heart wasn't in it, I promise."
And, for the record, my hatred of Sarah Palin is completely non-sexist. I loathe her just as much as I loathe all of the male theocrats making war on my existence. The notion that we shouldn't vet inexperienced, offensive, anti-woman, fascist extremist candidates just because they happen to be women... That's sexist. And that offends me.
NO, this isn't at the fringes of the party, much as McCain might like to claim.
Kristin, actually, during the debate, McCain pointedly refused to renounce ANY behavior by the people at his rallies. He didn't claim they were fringe at all.
And Octo, what did you think when McCain answered that way? It didn't give you pause?
Thanks, belledame, for assuming that I am not even aware of their voting records. You are sooo smart for thinking of that! The words you went on to put in my mouth are just more icing on that lovely cake.
QE – please don’t assume I haven’t weighed the chances of harm to social policies with a Republican president who moved right for purposes of campaigning, a Repub VP who’ll be kept on a very tight leash, and a large Dem majority in the Senate. I am also weighing the safety and economic health (at all levels) of the country with a severely inexperienced President at the helm.
Marge – many thanks.
BD – none of that info is new to me. Also, I never mentioned Palin’s an inducement for me. She isn’t. Finally, taxes aren’t the sum total of my thoughts here, thanks very much. And, lifting the top bracket to 63% (Bush tax cuts + social security) will do a lot more to hurt the lower and middle than the upper classes. The actions the upper classes will take to shelter themselves – guess whom they’ll hurt? There are plenty of people from diverse backgrounds choosing to vote other than Obama this time around, please avoid making “selfish” judgments about matters you don’t understand.
And, re your “what Renee said” comment – I’ll refer you to her comments in the post above. I wish everyone had her kind of class. While she strongly disagrees with my reasoning and verdict here, she’s avoiding the kind of judgments and unnecessary vitriol you’ve displayed.
Kristin – I am not defending Palin or McCain. I am defending my choice given the options presented. No need for histrionics.
Daisy – link me to what you’re talking about, I will respond. I don’t defend any behavior at rallies. I’ve heard both candidates saying they condemn it. If you have a link saying otherwise, happy to respond.
QE, BD, Kristin - not sure why you feel your judgments are relevant to me. Surely you know I've already decided otherwise? If you choose to come back, and I certainly understand why you may wish to talk amongst yourselves instead (which -- feel free), please understand that I will always respond to any questions you may have about my decisions. I will not respond to emotional outbursts suggesting that you understand how I've weighted the many variables, or how you believe that my conclusion says things about me that you can never understand. If this presents too weighty a challenge, there are many more safe and comfortable places for you out there on the nets. Best of luck to all of you.
"Kristin – I am not defending Palin or McCain. I am defending my choice given the options presented. No need for histrionics."
Right, that. Objectivity: weapon of the most privileged.
Oh, and speaking of disinterested speech... The kind you seem to value so highly. Iris Marion Young wrote a really insightful book called Democracy and Inclusion, in which she claims that the privileging of disinterested, calm speech in politics is exclusionary of women and communities of color. And it is. Those of us who are most affected by the most awful of these policies--we tend to get the most emotional about them, see. And we're stopped from entering the discussion before we even get through the door.
Kristin -- there are other contrasts I might make that would be more apt, although I'll avoid the temptation. Yours is certainly convenient and comforting -- so you go with that one, and I hope it works for you. And again, I do wish you the very best.
Oh, I love that, Octo, I really do. "You're not sure why my judgments are relevant -to you-." Are you not. Really. I can really tell, you know.
Yes, -obviously-, they're not relevant to your -actual decision-. What there would -really- be no point to doing would be engaging in a calm, reasoned argument about why I think this is the wrong decision: -you've already done it.- You voted your conscience, and now you're expressing yourself, congratulations. In a calm, reasoned, -objective- way, which squishy id emotions have -nothing to do with;- clearly, unlike the rest of us, you are above such things, amirite? Which is also why you're posting this right now. Of course. How unreasonable that I or anyone else might actually have any sort of feelings in response to this revelation. And, sure, yes, you're within your rights not to want to read them here on your blog.
But for the record, this is what's finally sent me over the edge, Octo: yeah, I am sure that your one vote isn't making the -material- difference between yea or nay. It's -all- emotional, Octo, and I think you damn well know it. Yeah, -now-, -finally-, I'm hurt and angry. Now, -finally-. I am taking it personally. Finally, -yes.-
You don't like it and won't tolerate even a -suggestion- that I'm hurt and angry?
Because I am reading you as effectively saying your taxes are more important than my civil rights (never even mind what I think of the -objective- reasoning here)? And, what, let me guess: now -I'm- being unfair to -you- because you know in your heart of hearts that that's -not what you MEANT- when you pulled the lever and then announced it. Right?
O.K. Your blog, your conscience, your taxes, your everything. Good enough. Just so you know: THAT, as far as I am concerned, is the real deal breaker here.
Well, that, and that you apparently read what I posted here as -still- not calm, reasoned, unhostile, etc. enough for you.
Speaking of unfair: apparently I was incorrect: Hugo in fact ultimately did -not- vote for McCain. My apologies to Hugo.
As to your second comment, who has stopped you from entering the discussion? I've said, above: "If you choose to come back...please understand that I will always respond to any questions you may have about my decisions. I will not respond to emotional outbursts ..."
So, no doors are being shut here. This is my house, and I think it's fair for me to choose to respond to dissent (which many do not) but not angry insults. I haven't said you cannot make angry insults. Feel free, if it helps.
It it would make you feel better for me to respond in kind, I can do that too. You have complimented me, elsewhere, on remaining calm in arguments. And for that I am grateful. It is not out of a cerebral preference for "disinterested speech" that I do this, however. It's out of a desire to be fair, exactly because of the privilege issue. I feel others -- not all, but some -- have more right or excuse than I to bare fangs. And as words are weapons I have long been fairly friendly with, I try to use the harsher ones sparingly.
However, if you don't like that choice and feel it would be more public-spirited of me to make a different one, we could certainly work that out.
Once again, Kristin, I wish you all the best.
BD – again, it’s not simply taxes vs human rights. It’s safety, security, and economic viability of our country at all levels prioritized over the very unlikely possibility of human rights suffering with a majority Dem congress and a Repub admin that cares more about reform than social issues. So, your “I am reading you as effectively saying” is incorrect. If it were my taxes vs your civil rights, the choice would be the latter.
And – the deal breaker happened long before this post. I think we both know exactly when. But please convey all my best wishes, and I do mean that sincerely.
Well no, Octo. See, I don't think Kristin was arguing to 'make herself feel better', convenient and comfort doesn't fit into it. Although speaking of, I think self justification is part of the reason for your post, since you brought up convenient and comfort. A large part, considering your post is situated as a defense instead of a simple statement. If there was no emotional need to justify your vote, this whole shebang wouldn't be occurring. Now about Kristen's comment, I was going to bring the same thing up about an hour ago, but I deleted my post.
But since you feel the need to make reasoning processes not your own into some sort of Feel Good Theory, I'll point out that this 'argue against me like a calm, collected individual about policies that affect you! Don't Be Angry!' happens to be on several bingo cards. 'I do believe Nezua wrote on it as well, although damned if I have the link. Scary black people, scary trannies, men-hating women? They must ring - some - bells, yes? So why is it suddenly okay to demand we be 'calm' and 'rational' now?
AW: well, of course most blogging is self-justification, one way or another. I’m certainly not immune. And I welcome emotional responses, despite the collective eagerness to wedge me onto a bingo board. Let’s review. I said the following:
“I will not respond to emotional outbursts suggesting that you understand how I've weighted the many variables, or how you believe that my conclusion says things about me that you can never understand.”
What does that mean? You can respond emotionally, if you like. I am certainly not demanding you be calm and rational. And I will respond. You can even respond in an outburst suggesting you understand my motivations or rendering a verdict about my character based on incomplete data. That, I will not respond to. And I believe, unless I’m quite misguided, is not only fair but common practice for all of us here, bingo or no bingo. I am in a fairly select group in not insulting my detractors back, in fact.
Keep in mind that I have seen a number of folks here dismiss dissent at a much earlier point than what I have proposed. I think we’re all aware that I’m not the only one who has noted the echo-chamberesque nature of various communications. Let’s not be suggesting anything about the kettle that is oh so easy to refute. Many thanks. And enjoy the afternoon.
Last response.
No. "We" do not "know" exactly when. I meant, "deal breaker" as far as -I- was, am concerned. If you wish to continue with your apparent belief that it was I who rejected you "long before this," that is your prerogative, but I maintain one last time: it wasn't so.
I tried, dammit. I really did.
I'm done here.
Oh good grief. (hope this thread is still active, my computer got a fatal system error Sunday night)
Re: the emotional argument thing -- it's perfectly fine to do so, but you have to realize it's less likely to get your point across and more likely to get an inflammatory response in return, thus, my *not* posting in places where I'm trying to change people's minds (which I gave up a while back) things like "people who think Obama is a great progressive champion and that he has run anything other than a downright evil campaign are easily manipulated fools", cause that sort of closes the argument to whatever else I have to say. (I do think exactly that, however, and even if I shared the views of some of these people that he would be a good president and bought the Obot party line on McPalin, I still would have trouble voting for him and might not do so at all because of said campaign, see reclusiveleftist.com for a rather extensive list of things (or a long ago eriposte post at theleftcoaster for an earlier extensive list, if you want to go way back).
Same with stuff like "You're not Colin Powell, and no one is waiting to here who you endorse" -- seriously, what's the point other than to insult? And if you don't care who she endorses, why are you reading her blog and commenting on it?
Re: who would actually do a better job (keep in mind I voted for Mckinney here) -- obviously, some of you have very different takes on Palin/McCain one the one side, and Obama on the other side, than Octogalore or myself do. I think this stuff has been argued to death at this point, so I'll just say one area where I disagree w/octo is on progressive economic policies and Obama -- I think the conservative money people are going to be very happy with him, and a lot of his supporters are either going to be disappointed or justifying it in the same way they justified his reversal on FISA/telecom immunity, offshore drilling and/or the way they completely ignored the making an outspoken homophobe the head of his "faith and values" tour. And now I must go, or I'd reply at more length.
Belle -- this talk of dealbreakers is a bit odd. If one doesn't want to hang with someone, whether online or off, simply don't. That's the decision I made a month or so ago, as you no doubt recall, and this is what I was referring to earlier. If you feel the need for a formal break-up now, however, that's cool too.
If by "I tried, dammit. I really did" you mean: to create a situation where people agree with and echo your views or face punishment, then I certainly agree. And kudos for that. I'm sorry to have let you down in your valiant efforts. Of course, there were many ways in which I didn't, I seem to recall. But it's inconvenient to allow those to get in the way of your righteousness, so let's not.
"I'm done here."
Yup. I will remember the good, and wish you the best.
Mate, it's your choice to vote for McCain. But don't call it feminist, don't expect that the people whose rights WILL be stomped upon will look upon that all philosophically and disinterested.
Call it what it is, privileged self-interest, and be done with any pretense to caring about social issues.
Cos yeah, social reform? Wtf? How is the Republican stated goal of removing choice *not* social reform? Or the plans for the health care system that's going to leave people with disabilities like uh my girlfriend struggling to pay for medical care? Sorry I keep losing my objectivity. Funny that.
Frankly I'm disgusted that you have the nerve to sell all kinds of marginalised people down the river and call it progress. I really thought much, much better of you (yes, even after the mess that went down). But whatever, live and learn.
Laters yeah.
Emily: I'll refer you to the post and comments in talking about why I agree that the only ethical strategy is to put net benefit over self interest. If I felt my own personal tax situation was the only economic consideration, it would not be one. I disagree with you about the differential on social policy and health policy (I think Obama's plan will not have the hoped-for effect), and also about how the economic and foreign policy issues will weigh. Don't pretend you understand my priorities, or that there is only one way -- your way -- to achieve a better world for everyone.
Frankly I'm not sure that the lack of your support will be notably different than having it, but I certainly understand the spirit in which that declaration is made. I appreciate your sharing your opinion, although I disagree with the basis on which you've formed it.
Well, Octo, nice to see that objectivity of yours at work:
"octogalore: WTF? Don’t Obots have
better things to do than targeting feminists who aren’t sipping the
koolaid?"
The least you could do is stop being disingenuous and admit where you were coming from on your own blog.
I had a long list of questions prepared in response to your call for questions, but you know what? It doesn't even matter anymore. I, for one, am glad to be among the celebrating this once.
Also, it's really, really not cool to refer to me as an "Obamabot." Or to compare me to the victims of a cult massacre in which real people died. And not that long ago.
With that. Thank you SO much for giving me, Em, and Belle permission to talk amongst ourselves.
I'm out.
Kristin, if you read the follow up comments, you'll see that I wasn't referring to all Obama supporters there, and specifically said some are among my friends and family. Nice parsing there. Happy celebrating.
Kristin -- I will refer you to my most recent post, above.
If you had bothered to make your way here earlier, or to get to know me at all during those long email exchanges in which you asked for help for your personal issues (not sure I was helpful, but you know I tried), you might be better qualified to make comments about who I am. As it is, I'm afraid you aren't.
And before I say goodbye for good. I did sometimes wonder if your offers to "help" weren't motivated by a sense of condescending paternalism. Thank for validating my paranoia on public domain for the world to see.
"I think such governmental meddling is so clearly evident on both sides that I cannot hold McPalin any more accountable for that than O’Biden."
If a Governor in many other states:
1. Demand his/her appointed commissioner to reopen an investigation on a civil service employee in a matter that has already been settled and dealt with according to civil service regulations before s(he) and said commissioner took office....especially if a critical motivating factor was due to negative personal animus....such as having a sibling involved in a nasty divorce.
2. This was done despite the fact the civil service employee concerned had no subsequent substantiated offenses they could justifiably use against him.
3. Had staff members, knowingly or otherwise, under him/her attempt to access said civil service employee's personnel records, attempt to press said commissioner into firing said civil service employee....despite the fact doing so would violate civil service regulations, union contracts, and bring a well-supported lawsuit from said employee for unjust termination and violation of due process rights s(he)'s entitled to under employment law and civil service regulations.
4. Allowed spouse to feel entitled to press said commissioner about the civil service employee's case using the governor's office...going far beyond what average citizens of the state are entitled to do.
5. Finally fired said commissioner when he did not fire said civil service employee.....and then come up with several incoherently inconsistent excuses to justify said firing after others started probing the firing.
said governor would most likely be heavily investigated and there will be far more hell raised to the point few governors outside of Alaska would dare attempt to pull this BS, especially as blatantly as this.
This concerns me not only as a citizen, but also because I have several friends working as professional civil service employees for various state agencies....and I would hope that no governor or political appointee attempts to circumvent civil service regulations and due process procedural protections in order to fire a civil service employee on the basis of personal animus and/or politically-based reasons.
The one time a political appointee, motivated by personal animus, attempted to pull this BS on a friend by giving a BS unsubstantiated negative performance evaluation not supported by his recorded work performance, he and his union rep only had to raise the issue with that appointee's head to start an investigation which ultimately resulted in that appointee's effective firing.
Oh, Kristin, how disappointing. Your desire to put me down gets in the way of your logic. It should be clear that I only mentioned that once you put on the table various claims about my character. I think every defendant has the right to confront her accuser. It's unfair for you to expect to be able to paint me in a certain light without my having any words in my own defense, no? I'm supposed to just sit by and pretend you have no context for thinking differently of me than your words here? Hey, I'm human. The fact that I would never and have never raised any of that before this, I think, speaks to it being motivated by things other than paternalism.
Exholt -- I agree, that's concerning. I continue to contend that the meddling and politicking that was unethical on the part of the other side is also. I started to name chapter and verse -- but per my more recent post on the election, I want to try to move on from that and see if thing work out better than I hoped.
Yikes, I've missed out on so much bitterness from the sore winners in my short time away.
Queen Emily: You vastly overestimate what Obama is going to do for progressive causes. As for stomping on rights, there's not one marginalized group of people, from women, to gay folks, to minority races that he supports protections for. He is nominally pro-choice but supports additional restrictions that I can't abide, and a fawning press and congress will be eager to help him with. I don't see how supporting illegal wiretapping and the Wall st. bailout against a huge public outcry are commensurate with the champion of the disenfranchised.
kristin: Shame on you for taking advantage of Octo's time and kindness to help you and then retroactively maligning her motive for doing so after she said she voted for someone else. It's taking a very long time for you to flounce away.
Marge -- thanks. That means a lot.
All -- I'm closing comments here. I think anything that could productively be achieved already has been. Please move any comments to the new thread.
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