Wednesday, January 7, 2009

Meaningless Argument about What's Feminism

Recently in the Feminist blogosphere, some very fine bloggers have expressed discomfort that some feminists believe it’s necessary for a feminist issue to center – or at least substantively discuss – feminism.

Holly, in her characteristically excellent post on the tragic and racist killing of Oscar Grant, states:

“I don’t want to have that meaningless argument about what’s feminism and what’s not. Fuck that shit, really. It’s not even necessary–everyone should care about this kind of thing going down, regardless of who you are, as a matter of human rights and people being crushed by state power. People with deadly weapons, who are supposed to be protecting our communities, and who far too often end up as panicked bullies exacting deadly retribution on anyone who gets in their way. It doesn’t even have to be a feminist issue if that bothers you so much; decent human beings still ought to listen up and speak out, and we’ll still talk about it on this blog.”


Now, I agree with much of this. Whether or not something’s a feminist issue, a critical human rights issue like the Oscar Grant killing is something decent human beings should care about and speak out about. It is generally true as well that there is a link between the way state power is used based on race and based on gender.

As I’ve stated before, however, I don’t think it’s meaningless to discuss what’s a feminist issue. Because I think there’s a difference between an issue that feminists (and people in general) ought to be concerned about and a feminist issue. I don’t think those who argue that an issue that is best analyzed through a race or human rights rubric first and foremost, unless links to gender are discussed in a substantive way, isn’t a feminist issue, are people who don’t get engaged in such issues on a human rights level. Most feminists, I believe, are engaged in many issues in their IRL activism that aren't feminism-focused.

For example, let’s say I am publishing an anti-racist-centered blog. I probably will not highlight an article about sexism against a white government worker, even though the same kind of hierarchical power abuse can be extended to a racial analysis. If my blog is to center race, then race will be prominent in all or a large portion of my posts. Racialicious is a great example of this. If you look at the ten most recent posts, you will see that each of them center race. If I were less lazy, I’d go to the next ten and I’ll bet you’d see at least nine out of ten of those centering race as well.

Similarly with an environmental blog. You’re not likely to find articles centering women of any race without specific reference and substantive discussion re the environmental relevance. Or an anti-poverty blog. You won’t find articles about women generally that don’t deal specifically with income or poverty, even though one might argue that issues of economics are intrinsic to discussions of gender. If it’s intrinsic, then we don’t learn much by simply checking the box – we either discuss it honestly as a human rights issue centering the appropriate category, without a pretense that it’s a feminist issue, or we draw a substantive connection to feminism that goes beyond the basic human rights link.

When it comes right down to it, feminist blogs have every right to cover the subject material their authors wish to cover. I have no wish to police that. But it’s important to me that feminism be afforded the same centering that other human rights movements get. So if it’s not feminist-centric or even something-else-centric with a specifically discussed feminist intersection – don’t call it feminist. To state the obvious, intersectionality is about an actual intersection, not a discussion of things which absolutely do intersect with gender but without any treatment of this intersection. We know other movements don’t ignore themselves in treating how they intersect with others. Women tend to put ourselves second (or fourth) too often.

I agree with Michelle. It's not healthy.

18 comments:

jz said...

#1)I have no thoughts on defining feminism or blogs, other than "let the market decide" The "market" being -readership and -comments.

#2)Mrs. Obama's comments about women putting themselves 4th really reverberated with me. I FAILED to have prospective discussions with my husband on prioritizing work/home/other , and will have this with my kids. Ex.: If my husband had once stated, "I will take on XYZ service at work, in addition to my other duties. It will suck up my last remaining free time, and you'll never see me again." then I could have had input. Instead, I have no voice in the matter, and downsize my last remaining free time for myself, because I will not fail in my parenting responsibilities. My children will be warned to have these discussions prospectively.

Amber Rhea said...

Thanks for yet another common-sense post on this. It continues to astound me that this is even a source of debate.

Octogalore said...

JZ -- in a way, your second point contradicts your first. Right now because of the cultural self-placement of women, the market is not a free one. If women did put ourselves at least even with others, then our sentiments that the movement that's supposed to center us doesn't really have to, would be more authoritative. As it is, I don't know that fact that the number of people who've mentioned these concepts -- like me, Amber, Apostate, others I don't know about -- is so limited, reflects some kind of larger meaning that this is really a non-issue. At one point, women who agitated about the vote were limited in number. I don't think that's authoritative either.

On #2: Major kudos! Hindsight is truly 20-20. But because you get it, your kids won't have to rely on hindsight. That is awesome.

Octogalore said...

Amber -- thanks. At this point, I wish my gymnastics weren't so rusty -- I'm spending so much time bending over backwards to explain why my stance is NOT anti-intersectionality (to the contrary, in fact) NOR an assertion that feminists shouldn't care about these human rights issues. I mean, fuck, when I took mechanical engineering design (which intersects with physics) I didn't expect to get lessons on pure physics in that class. Which didn't mean that there weren't classes which studied how the two intersect, or that I didn't take physics separately. Why must feminism be all things to all people? It's almost like women have to bring home the bacon, cook it up and then clean up afterwards too!

Oops -- I forgot.

ray said...

Hi,

I was reading ur blog posts and found some of them to be very good.. u write well.. Why don't you popularize it more.. ur posts on ur blog ‘Astarte's Circus’ took my particular attention as some of them are interesting topics of mine too;

BTW I help out some ex-IIMA guys who with another batch mate run www.rambhai.com where you can post links to your most loved blog-posts. Rambhai was the chaiwala at IIMA and it is a site where users can themselves share links to blog posts etc and other can find and vote on them. The best make it to the homepage!

This way you can reach out to rambhai readers some of whom could become your ardent fans.. who knows.. :)

Cheers,

WunderlustingWillow said...

ah, the "I'm an equalist, not a feminist" peeps!

Well, I am a woman and believe in equal rights for all, therefore I am a feminist.

great post

Cassandra Says said...

Oh dear, this again. Agreed completely - there is nothing wrong with any given movement centering a specific group, even if that group is women. Now, some might say wait a minute, women is a broad term, some women are also lesbians, or of color, or disabled. And this would be correct. However, there is a reason that groups for lesbians center lesbians, and Racialicious centers race issues, and disability rights orgs center disability issues that are universal to people of all races and genders.

I'm still not sure why so many people find this concept so hard to grasp when it comes to feminism. Saying feminism should center on feminist issue isn't exclusionary, it's simply FOCUSED. Without focus nothing gets done.

Cassandra Says said...

Oh, btw? This incident happened at my local BART station. This isn't the first time either, just the first time witnesses got it on camera.

pocochina said...

THANK YOU. I find it so frustrating when feminists throw out the "I'm going to hurt your sensitive feminist feelings and say this anyway!" I really agree with the post, too, I'm glad she wrote it, but I'm really frustrated with the jump from "defining feminism" to "you should care." I can say that coffee isn't wine. I like coffee and I like wine. But they're not the same thing, and pointing that out isn't a value judgment. What does frustrate me is co-opting the word "feminism" to mean "all human rights movements, because women should put everyone else's well-being ahead of their own."

Basically, what you said, but less coherently.

apostate said...

Yes, again. I can't believe this is so hard for people to grok. I have to think it's because women ARE culturally taught to put ourselves last, and feminists do it almost as much as less enlightened groups of women - no other explanation makes sense for why this discussion even comes up.

The New Jersey 4 never got the kind of attention the Jena 6 did.

Par for the course. Depressing as hell.

Octogalore said...

Thanks much, Cassandra, Pocochina (welcome!) and Apostate. Yeah, kind of like a broken record, but all the responses over there of "yeah, how meaningless!" depressed me. This is not an either/or of: (1) feminism = liberalism OR (2) one simply does not care about or engage with other human rights issues or intersectionality. There's some basic logic here that for some reason, some smart people are (a) resisting and (b) trying to fit those who voice it into (2) above where that's not what is being said.

Comrade PhysioProf said...

Excellent analysis, Octo. What you are talking about I view as a particular instance of this generally pernicious rhetorical device employed to belittle attention paid to *any* matter of concern: "How dare you discuss X, when this MUCH TERRIBLER/IMPORTANTER thing Y is happening!?!?"

Anonymous said...

I've been following this debate for a while and I feel like the big elephant in the room that no one talks about is origin of conscious intersectionality and non-feminist-centered issues in feminism, which is central to why it is so hotly debated and spills over into discussions like this. The problem is not that feminists have a problem viewing women's issues intersectionally or aren't willing to fight hard against any injustice, in fact, feminism has always done this more so than any other movement. The problem is when feminism is slandered as being "for white women only" or insufficiently intersectional or blind to other social issues, when it is just blatantly untrue. But this is a widely accepted belief and is the basis on which intersectionality and "non-feminist-centered feminist issues" have come to the forefront - it is meant to be an antidote to so-called "white women's feminism". Over time, this has translated into a feminism that co-opts as many POC issues as possible, for credibility purposes among MOC (no matter that they don't return the favor, but anyway) and the "mutliculturalist" movement. It's all a very large, long effort to fight against a perception of exclusive white woman's feminism that has never actually existed. The myth of it was actually started by MOC many years ago and most of it is a response to MOC concerns, many of which were unfounded and were more about coded sexism on their part than coded racism on the part of white feminists.

Anyway, what ends up happening is you have some feminists who are reacting defensively to intersectionality or non-feminist-centered feminism because of coded accusations of racism, exclusiveness, or imperialism in feminism that are not true (and many women just want a shred of credit for all the work they have done in other movements), and who are also reacting to the trend of consistently placing women-centered issues last in places that are supposed to be safe havens for women. It is also becoming increasingly problematic because other movements are not asked to also be intersectional and get away with rampant sexism, which leaves some feminists wanting to reject non-feminist-centered issues because they feel extremely betrayed by other movements.

But...this all comes out looking like a debate on what is or isn't a feminist issue or debates on intersectionality that become quickly misunderstood, especially among younger generations who are taking everything at face value and don't realize the real story behind these movements and also have no idea how much historical misinformation there is out there.

Octogalore said...

That's an interesting analysis, Anon (curious as to whether you have posted elsewhere?)

I agree that feminism has been unfairly slandered. While I do think it hasn't been as inclusive as would be ideal, I think the degree to which it gets and accepts that label relative to other movements is disproportionate. And you're right that younger feminists, eager to do the right thing and also to please liberal men, don't have or (often) seek this perspective.

But the reactions I see are not to intersectionality -- it seems accepted among intelligent feminists that this is critical. The problem is displacement -- where related "isms" subsume feminism without the intersection. It is almost as if the mathematical definition is being ignored, in a triumph of women's tendencies to put ourselves last.

here-be-dragons said...

Here via WomanistMusings (Wendy_HBD there). I am mostly commenting just to let you know I stopped by. Great post, though. I completely agree. :)

Anonymous said...

Hi, Octo - yes, I have commented on older posts of yours. I totally agree with you. I think we're saying the same thing. I think, in essence, it is the intersectional/third wave label and how it is practiced (not the concept itself, which is indeed very progressive) that is lacking in proportion (a wonderfully descriptive phrase I often see from Donna Darko). I honestly believe that every movement should be intersectional and I do believe that feminism has been so naturally much more often than it is credited for. I also have my own theories about why feminism has not appeared to be as inclusive in the past, but that's probably for another discussion.

Anyway, I'm very interested in uncovering why third wave thinking/intersectionality - the labels, the practices, the disproportion - have turned out the way they have. I think it is necessary to explore this further - what are the underlying belief systems about oppression that we consider to be inherent truths in feminism? What are the underlying belief systems we hold in other movements? How are these types of thinking helping or hindering feminist progress? I think this discussion is important and the dynamics of this campaign season have forced us to explore territory that many of us haven't explored before. And I truly believe that many of these other discussions, like yours above and the dozens of others that we have seen this past year, are part of a trickle down effect of much bigger problems in feminism that are difficult to articulate and identify.

I say this having been on many different sides of feminist debates over the years, and having collaborated with many different women. I really do believe there larger issues going on that have historically disrupted the feminist movement, did so this year, and are likely to do so in the future.

Anyway, sorry if I diverted the focus of this post. Just wanted to offer my opinion on how we get to these discussions on what is and what isn't feminism in the first place!

Octogalore said...

HBD, thanks!

Anon -- I'd be curious to know your moniker from earlier posts, for continuity purposes, if you would feel comfortable sharing: octogalore@gmail.com.

I agree that disproportionality is a good term. I think we can look at the dynamics of both male-female(eg, family) groups and all-female groups and see where some of this is coming from. I'd be curious to hear your further thoughts on the matter.

Anonymous said...

Hi, Octo - so sorry, but I didn't see your post until now! I've always identified myself as anonymous, but I would be happy to email you anyway. I'm swamped at the moment but will do so when I have time to chat.